Wednesday, January 25, 2012

Guest Blogger: Darren Russell


Guest Blogger, Darren Russell, is from Tulare, California and is related to Marion Reese, Charles Calvin Smith, and the Morris family. He currently lives and works near Phoenix, AZ, where he assembles in a house meeting of believers with a few other families.





I would like to clarify some of the very early history of the Church in question. In the 1930s there were thousands, yes literally thousands of brethren, scores of ministers and prophets who were following the picking seasons.


Those were hard times and many of the groups from Oklahoma, Idaho, and Colorado were coalescing in a western migration to alleviate their poverty. They were a very evangelistic bunch who for years lived a gypsy type of existence up and down the west coast from Southern California up into Canada.

When the Oregon City church took off it was not Walter White's Church, it was a group of believers that followed Christ, of which he was one. As brethren began to settle themselves in areas many stayed on in that area, Bro. Walter even opening up a store. The truth is the Church existed in that part of Oregon for over 50 years prior to Walter White moving there.

When Walter White left Idaho, he had been taken in by a doctrine that was present at Jerome since about 1900 that the "fullness of the gentiles" was upon us. He also debated with other leaders about such matters as divorce and women cutting hair. He went to Oregon City where there were already people who would accept him, he having made several trips through the years into that body.

He was accepted as an apostle by many, and gradually usurped the authority of many elders who had been there prior. After a few years most of his opposition left and his faithful remained, the rest is a matter of history, of which I believe Suzanne is doing a wonderful job of expounding upon.

For those who do not appreciate the ramifications of the "fulfilling of times of the gentiles", that is when the amount of people who will be saved is completed and afterwards comes the Judgment. Once all those that will be saved have been, there is no longer a point to baptism. Your only hope is to be numbered among Israel. There are of course variations on this theme, but they all have the same consequence, a spiritually dead church results.

You have to understand, there was no thought for the future, because the eternal future was expected around the corner. There were no baptisms, no ordinations, and no one expected to live long enough to produce offspring that would make it to adulthood. Children were always grandfathered into salvation until the reached the age of personal accountability, when they were expected to be baptized. At the time of Walter White's death few of his congregation seriously contemplated that the world would last long enough for baptisms to be necessary.

I must add that these aberrations in doctrine are not indicative of the Followers of Christ in general. There has been through the years and in different areas other splinter groups who have led similar doctrines. One related group in Cortez, CO are very similar to the Oregon City group in everything except their last days doctrine, at least they have maintained their baptisms. Their leader, a man named Carver, as long as he was living was also supposed to be the only man who could baptize. After his death there were appointed leaders from his family who could baptize, but their sermons were simply reiterations of previous Carver sermons, they were reported to sometimes listen to tape recorded sermons of their late pastor in lieu of church. Their doctrines were not so much different from the rest of the groups as much as their claim to be the exclusive inheritors and founts of the truth. 

Then there was the True Followers of Antlers, Oklahoma whose leader Old Joab Morris sewed his bible shut and would not allow another one on his mountain or any gentiles to step foot upon it without a curse. He believed he would live forever, and never see death as long as he remained at that place. They also expected Christ to return at any moment. He was never able to put that belief to the ultimate test as he was evicted by the state authorities and those who possessed the deed to his property, which he held by a revelation from God. Seems God neglected to file this revelation at the local courthouse. They had a few more peculiarities but of course the one predominant in Prophet led flocks, they were the ONLY ones who were going to heaven!

Now I don't tell about these groups to insinuate that all FOC churches are the same, I'd say far from it, the FOC churches as a whole are evangelical in outlook, and take Christ's commissions seriously. I would like to point out that throughout the entire history of the Church, since even the days of the original apostles, there has been group peculiarities and even heresies. Once a group has turned inward on itself and neglected their duty, their candlestick is removed and they are no longer a light to any.

77 comments:

  1. Mr. Russell can you tell us how you are related to Charles Calvin Smith and Marion Reese?

    ReplyDelete
  2. Smith and Reece were brother-in-laws each married to Morris sisters. My grandfather was Vern Russell whose mother was a Morris. They were all part of the same Followers Church in Ringwood, Oklahoma. Elder Will Nichols , the father of Ernest was also my grandfather's uncle.

    ReplyDelete
  3. So were you ever in the FOC church yourself?

    ReplyDelete
  4. I am a baptized member and currently assemble in a house meeting with others who share the same beliefs and lineage in Arizona.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You meant to say a baptized member of the church of the first born....

      Delete
  5. so Darren who baptized you and does your group go to doctors, or how close do you follow bro.Charlie Smiths teaching?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I was baptized by a minister named Bill Hobbs who lives in Indiana. I have never been to a doctor, why would I? God has always been there for me , and I praise him for that! As a rule of thumb the group does not go to doctors, but that issue is left to the conscience of the individual as a matter of principle. I follow the teachings of Christ and not of men, after all, isn't that what Bro. Charlie did?

      While we are on the subject of following men. Not a totally wrong thing to do, as even Apostle Paul said, "be ye followers of me, as I am of Christ." But to follow a person as an example he needs to be genuinely following Christ. So is the Oregon City group doing and teaching what Bro. Charlie taught and did? He traveled extensively among thousands of brethren, preached as he was led to the world winning souls, baptized many, God working miracles by his hands.

      Delete
    2. I am curious anonymous...why did you choose Charlie Smith? Why not Walter White? Of course Walter established himself as a breakaway after Charlie's death. Why not Marion Reece? or Jacob McDonald? or Elias Brewer? ......

      Delete
  6. That's so interesting, especially poiniant at the end. The FOC has a light between themselves, inward as you say, never outward. Don't the heathen do the same toward one another. That is so apparent from the outside looking in. Their impossible standards will probably keep them from receiving any good gift from God. If our savior walked into their building they would throw him out immediately as a heretic, because he would never preach to them what they would be willing to hear.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Darren we choose Charlie Smith because he taught the same as Walter White and Marion Reece.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Really? Charlie Smith and Marion Reece ended baptism and forbid other ministers from preaching? Did they teach that they were the only ones who could baptize? During Marion's lifetime he traveled and preached in many places, South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Oklahoma, and many other places, helped establish churches and furthered the gospel, ordained leadership. He was a very forward man, as were the others. If everyone is holding to their teachings then why are there issues between brethren that did not exist before? So where , how and by whom did Bro. Reece obtain his doctrine?

      Delete
  8. So are you preaching and baptizing? If so can you tell us about your calling.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I was called to preach by prophecy in 1988, confirmed a few days later in another congregation. I have never been called to baptize, I have been asked by some, but left it to others more qualified. I live in an area where my closest brethren are about an hour away, I meet with them regularly, but do most of my speaking to those in the world. I had a strange prophecy even before I was baptized that I would be called upon at some future date, "to be a lawyer for the people". It was an odd prophecy because we did not believe in using lawyers, as God places the words in our mouth when before magistrates. Anyhow, I am not a lawyer, so we will have to see how that one plays out. I would add that I am not in any leadership position in the Church.

      Delete
    2. Are the congregations you mention followers of Christ or church of the first born?

      Delete
    3. Both names are used, somewhat depends on the area.

      Delete
  9. Does Bill Hobs have a church in Indiana? Do you know who baptized him.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes and Yes. My lineage traces to Jim Caldwell who was baptized by Jacob McDonald with Laying on of hands by McDonald and Reece and others. He was baptized the same day as Elder Frank Osborne in 1878.

      Delete
  10. Darren, are you in contact with the Oregon or Idaho churches?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you are referring to Oregon City, Grants Pass, and the Boise groups that associate with Grants pass then no. I was not raised around them.

      Delete
  11. I think you might be causing some confusion. Followers of Christ do not accept the church of the first born. I think you weren't being completely truthful until you were asked. And then you still said it's the same. Your lineage might be the same If you go back far enough but it's two different churches today and has been that way for a long time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There is no doubt YOUR circle of Followers are separate from the circle I am around, that is why we are having these conversations. There most surely IS a difference, but what are these differences? and why do they exist? At what point did they become distinct churches? I have answered all your questions without hesitation and honestly, but you have yet to provide answers for the majority of mine. Of course that may be more an indication of each of our agendas, mine is to educate, and and from your line of questioning it appears you are attempting to undermine the credibility of my statements, as if somehow that will make them untrue. As to me saying they are the same, I was raised that way and never remember a time when they were not considered the same. Mind you, there have also always been congregations or ministers who were marked for various reasons under both names, and we warned of them. In fact the full legal name of the church as found on WWI documents pertaining to conscientous objector status forms was "Church of the First Born known as the Followers of Christ". Names attached to these documents included members of the Morris family and Elder Tom Smith who were baptized by Br. Marion Reece.

      Delete
    2. First off there was more than one person asking you questions. The ones I asked were to help me understand who you really are. The description Suzanne gave of you hinted at church of the 1st born but I wasn't 100% sure. Your picture of a baptism is wonderful, and your account of early history is very interesting. But the only thing that discredits you is your hiding who you are and what church you are with. Why did I have to ask so many questions to get the truth . You were intentionally miss leading. Yet you claim honesty. I think everyone should know you speak for "the church of the first born" not the followers of Christ. And that you have no first hand knowledge of the followers. That being said I do find you very interesting. But this is not the place for a debate of doctrine.

      Delete
  12. Do you feel compelled to speak to the FOC members, or are you simply trying to fill in the blanks about the history?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My initial posts were simply to fill in some historical gaps, but there is a hope that by doing so some eyes are opened to their origins and thought given to the future. Churches, which are something more than a conglomerate of like-minded Christians, are not created in vacuums, and is not meant to be the Widow of Christ. God's command to the first couple, the first Adam, was to be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth. Christ, who is the second Adam, with his Bride, the Church, also according to the same plan need to be fruitful, and make disciples of all nations. I would like to hear someone from OC to address how they know they have Marion Reece's doctrine and how it is that he obtained a position above all others which each succeeding prophet, C.C. Smith, then W. White taking over his mantle?

      Delete
  13. Darren, if you are a member of a different church why not mention it right away. Suzanne and you both tried to hide who you really are.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Anon, I don't know Darren personally. I thought the name of his church was FOC, if I knew it was COFB, I would've posted that in his introduction. I was taught they were the same, and I have no idea why such a thing even matters so much. It seems like you WANT your children to be doomed. Open your eyes and give your future generations a chance. I'm not personally endorsing Darren or anyone else. Like I said, I don't know him. As for me, the spiritual and moral life of my children is my first and most crucial mission in life.

      Delete
    2. The only reason it matters so much is the effort to hide it. The churches have been separate for way longer than you have been alive, but you were raised that they are The same. You keep saying you are being honest , why try to hide the truth. Darren perspective is fine in the proper context, but it's a lie If he is pretending to be someone he is not.. so it matters to me. By the way I am not judging him or you to hell so why do you mention my kids in such a way. That's kind of a low blow saying someone's kids are doomed.

      Delete
    3. I'm not a "Hell-Fire-and-Damnation" kind of Christian anymore, though that is HOW I WAS RAISED. I don't go around judging anyone's eternal future. When my folks went to visit Charles Welch when he was dying, more than a dozen Followers sat outside the room talking about how our entire family is going to HELL. Hmmm... maybe you were there, maybe not. How am I to know for sure?

      Delete
    4. And, by the way, I was not saying your kids ARE doomed. I was saying it "seems" like you want them to be ... the way YOU believe is that you must be baptized by an Apostle to make it Heaven. That's not my interpretation of scripture.

      Delete
    5. You shouldn't speak for what other people believe. Even though You were raised in the same church doesn't mean you know what I believe. We were not raised "the same". You like to make blanket statements about people you haven't talked to in 20 years. This is my last post, the only reason I ever posted was to find out who Darren was, now I know. I do wish Darren would have been more clear about who he was, If he is interested in Oregon city then get should go there. He won't learn much about them here. Oh I am sorry I forgot If it is online it must be true.

      Delete
    6. Just to clarify, are you inviting Darren to church?

      Delete
    7. He wouldn't be the first cotfb to come there, but am I offering a formal invite...No. but If he thinks he has something to gain by coming out it's easy to find...If his genealogy is what he claims he has lots of family there.

      Delete
    8. Anon, you are correct on a couple of issues. I should not speak on what other people believe. Truth is, I have encountered many differing beliefs among many congregations which fell under both of those names.

      I do know my raising and do not believe that my beliefs are fundamentally different from those at OC, though I acknowledge there is some. Definitely I do not count you as enemies, nor would I enjoy being perceived as one. I understand that there is no formal invite, but I would enjoy a visit, even if it amounted to nothing more than acquainting myself with family I have only heard of. Should I bring all my family documentation? lol

      Most of my information concerning the history of OC and White does come from family, and people who were there 40 years ago. To much of it I have fairly substantial documentation. My historical expertise on the church (in general not OC) is actually for the era prior to WWII.

      Delete
    9. Suzanne,
      It is interesting to see the blogs here. I'll introduce myself. My name is John and I am from Kenya, East Africa. I follow closely the information about FOC and COFB. The reason is that I have some teachings that we share in common, though I do not know them in person. Basically, I believed in Christ for the forgiveness of sins and the hope of eternal salvation. The similarities we share with the groups in discussion include the faith healing, home fellowships, gifts of the Holy Spirit in church rather than college trained ministers just to mention a few.
      I really respect some of the matters of doctrine in discussion here but why can't we keep off other personalities and concentrate on the author of salvation Jesus Christ. Again, maybe those who are posting can avoid the names of the congregations and post about the message and teachings of Christ, that can edify everybody.

      Delete
    10. Hi John, thank you for writing and introducing yourself. To answer your question/concern, the reason we are talking about church names and other petty details is because we are trying to reach the Oregon City FOC, a group which has closed itself off from all others and has had no preacher for more than 40 years. Those in the OC FOC raise these issues because they are overtaken with legalism.

      Delete
    11. Hi Suzanne,
      That is a bit strange. You'll pardon my ignorance then. But it would be interesting to talk to the baptized members of this group.

      Delete
  14. It doesn't matter? really?

    ReplyDelete
  15. It really doesn't matter who he is, or what he says. Your pathetic attepts to discredit him are not only pointless, but glaringly apparent. Any truthful man will have no place in the FOC. He didn't lie, Suzi is no liar, the misleading isn't being done by either of them.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Actually they both lied.

      Delete
    2. How can you say that? You are obviously misinformed. There was no intent to deceive...in fact where I am from in Tulare there were at the time three separate congregations, not including house to house brethren. On the larger Gail Street Church hung a "General Assembly and Church of the First Born" sign, on West Inyo, "Followers of Christ"., on H Street "Church of the First Born"...The minister who baptized me founded this one:

      http://www.manta.com/g/mm5t9wd/leslie-b-white

      They were all three related, though they did have some differences.

      My grandfather who passed away in the early 1990s was baptized by Br. George Oakley, my Father by a Rossiter, who was for years an elder at Tulare COFB, but who now attends that same FOC in Tulare. I may be coming from a different perspective, but I am not being dishonest. Nor was Suzi, who only was relaying what I had written to her.

      I really think you need to evaluate why you feel it necessary to smear us as liars. Has anything been said by me that was not true? Then enlighten us.

      Hosea 4:6
      My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

      Delete
    3. I have nothing to profit from lying. Of course, it is inevitable that I will make errors in my work, and I hope that my editors/readers will be gracious in helping correct any they find.

      Delete
  16. You tried to pretend you were the same as the followers of Christ in oc. Even though you know there is a distinct difference. You could have stated who You were with, but You chose to beat around the bush. That isnt very honest.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What are the differences, exactly? Just for clarification, I would love to know. And please feel free to use this forum to debate doctrine.

      Delete
    2. Anon, I never intended any such thing, by reading even my initial posts you would see I referred to several different bodies historically and geographically, and finally to the FOC in general. I listed the OC church among some of the differing ones, not in the general body. My intention was to share some of the historical similarities of differing but related groups.

      Delete
    3. Other than end time prophecies and their consequences which we have covered I think there is very little in ways of separation. The issue which I understand as having initiated the separation revolved around women praying and prophesying in church.

      Delete
    4. Do cotfb still have women "praying and prophesying "in church? Did you not read what the new testament says about womens role in church?

      Delete
    5. Of course, like where Paul states "Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. but every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven." I Cor. 11:4-5

      Delete
    6. Could you clarify for me, are you saying women speak in prophecy during church? If so you have answered your own question about why there is a split.

      Delete
    7. Yes, women pray according to the NT rule, prophesy, and speak in tongues. They wash the Saint's feet and never teach men, or usurp authority in the Church. They are our partners in the Faith, our "help-meets".

      Delete
  17. I think the diffrence is as you all aware of the foc in Oregon city are the only ones that are going to heaven. That is what I have been told al my life when I was there. They were baptized buy the only man on earth that was left. There was no one else that had that lineage. That's fine for those who are 50 and older. But what about there kids what about there grand kids. Not to mention the heathen or" worldly person" that comes to the knolage of the truth. No one else on the entire planet can come to the knolage, in there world view. It's absurd and not biblical. If you ask any of them what they were baptized into they will tell you they were baptized into that church. I was baptized into Jesus Christ and into to his church. You can not reason with the members in that church you can not use the bible to prove a point. Because the there trump card always comes out "that's just not the way we do it " and this trumps every bible verse there is. I still have family and loved one in the foc in oc and this pains me every day. One can only pray that there eyes are opened and that there hearts are softened. Give it to Jesus because he wishes that none should Parrish, so we can be assured that we are praying in his will.
    My family is special to me but man kind is special to GOD. Mine and every other person that comes to Christ. I for one have not thought you or Darren has lied.

    Thank you suzi for ths forum I can't wait for your book.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You make a good point. By the line of their questions they are looking for salvation in a person - Walter White, and now if they are to accept any leadership/direction, it must be someone who is the EXACT replica of White. I, like you, find my salvation in Jesus.

      Having spent my formative years in the FOC, accepting grace, accepting the possibility that I could be "saved" took a LOT of persuasion, education, and deprogramming.

      Thank you for your support and for continuing to read. More to come ....

      Delete
    2. "Knowledge."
      "Their, They're, and There" ~ There is a difference between each of these three words.

      Delete
  18. This forum has opened my eyes to the deception of the Followers of Christ/ I've loved the people of his church all of my life, but the doctrine that lives out here is so conveluted that no believing person can follow it. It saddens me to say it, but I'm ready to hear anything that sounds like it came from the Bible. The doctrine of the OC FOC has made 9/10 of the word of God of no effect. If they were interested in following Christ at all, they would be willing to listen to Darren, or anyone else of his lineage. We did all start from the same foundation, Christ, but the FOC has turned into something else. Darren, good luck ! Your going to need it, if your going to help anyone in the congregation find the truth.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. My grand parents and parents were from the Boise FOC church and moved to Tulare in the 60's. The name of "the church" is irrelevent but we are commonly refered to as the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn. I am a minister and when I baptise, I baptise into " the houshold of faith". I just stumbled across this blog today and find it very interesting but not really a place I want to engage in debate with anonymous posters. I live and assemble in Portland Oregon. My Name is Brother Dennis Martin and I would love to meet and visit with any FOC members, or anyone really, who would like to discuss Jesus Christ and him crucified. you can reach me at superdenmartin@aol.com

      Delete
  19. If you want lineage go to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches. Every bishop has a direct lineage back to one of the 12 apostles.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That would be a different sort of lineage, one traced through ordinations, not baptisms. Ultimately a case could be made that most denominations possess these in one form or another to the Apostles. That there is some significance to lineages is evident, but for many it becomes a source of contention and division. Another guest blogger here described his baptism by Walter White and wrote on this subject.

      Delete
    2. Technically it is through both baptism and ordination. As such all persons baptized in those churches have a direct baptismal lineage back to one of the 12 apostles. No other church, including the Anglican or Lutheran can make that claim. The schisms severed the lineage.

      Delete
    3. I'm an "outsider" I would like a little bit of clarification.
      At one time the FOC was a denomination say something like Southern Baptist? Then the leader of the OC church branched off (cut all communication) from the denomination. Or did the separation happen after he died?
      Are the other churches still connected? Or have they also separated?
      What is Church of the First Born? How does it relate to FOC?

      Delete
  20. The Church of the First Born known also as the Followers of Christ is the larger group with a greater number of bodies spread out over United States. As a rule the COFB which holds many of the same featured tenets, such as Faith Healing, Greeting with a Holy Kiss, Gifts of the Spirit etc. One group, preferring to only be called Followers of Christ from Enid, OK separated after WWI and had satellite congregations largely in Idaho, but also in Oregon and Northern California. Their separation was initially rather trivial with ministers traveling between the two at least into the 1960s. The Oregon City group was in a large part due to a division that happened in the Idaho church in the early 1940s, long before W. White's passing. It was simultaneous also with a further division that happened in the Enid group in 1940, and so several families from there and also from the California groups joined them in Oregon City. The Idaho/Enid groups seem to accept the OC one but so much vise-versa, and equally the COFB largely accepts the Idaho/Enid bunch but for the past 50 years or so not in reverse. The COFB/FOC in total does not consider themselves a denomination.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Would you or Suzi explain the Holy Kiss.

      Delete
    2. It is a demonstration of love show between members of the body of Christ. We are told in Psalm 2 to "kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way." Christ gives this principle, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." (Matt. 25:40) He also says, "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." (John 13:35) and Apostle Paul exhorts it in several endings to his letters, for example Romans 16:16, and Luke records it's example of usage in Acts 20. Peter also in I Peter 5:14 directs us to "greet one another with a kiss of charity." The ancient custom was a kiss on the lips, as the language of the scriptures suggest it is a single mutual kiss between two persons, there is no real good reason scriptural or exigetical to water down the custom, though a few have replaced the idea with one of a "holy handshake". The kiss is offered whenever members greet, and part, and took on a special significance in times of baptism to introduce proselytes to the Faith.

      Delete
  21. Darren, so why wouldn't someone want to go to a doctor, if only for preventative reasons. And what is the spiritual gain from not going, or the consequences of going? I just can't wrap my head around that one.

    ReplyDelete
  22. I really can not answer that question satisfactorily for every one. Many simply live that way because their parents taught them to do so, some out of fear of the unknown, some out of fear of rejection, and some because of how they comprehend the God of the scriptures.

    I also do not go to doctors and so will try to answer that question briefly and with my own view point.

    Firstly it is by faith that we are saved (Eph. 2:8)

    It is by faith that we are healed (Luke 18:42)

    Christ is both the author of our salvation and our healing.
    1 Peter 2:24
    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    There is only One Lord and one faith. (Eph.4:5)

    So I conclude that the same faith that is the vehicle of salvation is the vehicle for healing. Jesus states this to the Pharisees when they thought it blasphemous to forgive sins.

    Luke 5:23-25
    Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
    But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
    And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

    So which is easier? It is the same. So why did Christ heal the sick of palsy? To demonstrate he had the authority to forgive sins. So how does a person totally claim to possess faith in his God for his unseen salvation, and be wavering in his faith for his visible healing? these are the questions I ask myself and the conclusion of the matter for me is to "draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works." (Ps 73:28)

    Now giving my scriptural reasons, going back to what I said earlier. If it is of fear and not faith, then it is wrong. Fear is the result of doubt. A person can refuse a doctor all of his life and it be for reasons other than faith. In the congregations I attend, there is no rejection for going to a doctor, and everyone is encouraged to examine scriptures for themselves and live accordingly. I favor that concept so as to remove fear from the people's hearts and allow faith to grow in each person individually.

    I know this subject is a hard one to be grasped, especially in our culture, but hopefully I have given you at least a valid scriptural reason for that belief.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Legion, simply said faith is a gift

    ReplyDelete
  24. Darren,
    do you reject dentists and eye doctors and over-the-counter medicine too? If not, why not? Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I personally utilize optometry, but not the other two you mentioned. The reasoning is that glasses is no more than an aid, and does not "heal" anything. That brings up some other interesting points. Most people who shun doctors still believe in binding wounds, or for example using crutches. There is a certain care given to those that are sick, running cool baths for fevers, chicken noodle soup for a cold, and basic homeopathic solutions. I have managed to make it through life so far with not so much as an aspirin, and many can testify of injuries I have sustained where they believed I was doomed apart from a hospital.

    I have also seen many people healed while using doctors, and have no doubt it was still God, most doctors really are clueless most of the time, I sometimes think they use the by guess, by golly, by gosh I got it method. God can heal wherever you are and I believe in man giving him thanks in all cases. I feel the testimony is much purer towards unbelievers when there is no doubt as to where healing came from. It's hard to convince an atheist God was responsible when you are under a physician's care.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I believe doctors and other health professionals utilize a God given talent for healing. God can use them as His instruments in much the same way he uses preachers, parents, teachers, or anyone else to work His Will in the world and give aid and comfort.

      Please don't demean the talents and skills of physicians. You have no experience of them.

      Delete
    2. Anon, I was not intending to demean anybody, not even the health profession. I was explaining my thoughts on the subject, not based on my lack of experience, but upon the experience I have had with them. I have been in hospitals numerous times for family and friends.

      I do not believe they utilize "utilize a God given talent for healing" or they would not have needed medical training based upon years of research on cadavers and human guinea pigs.

      Can God use a doctor? Of course he can. Does he expect us to, that's the question each person is responsible to answer for themselves.

      Delete
    3. So is your personal objection to medicine the training methods or is it because it represents a lack of faith in God to heal you? Despite your assurance you are not being demeaning, your words show a clear disdain for the medical profession which I find interesting. It sounds like you scoff at the medical profession because they do not have a 100% success rate. But have you seen 100% success with faith healing? I see no reason the two can't work together.

      Re: God given talent, remember the Parable of the Talents, Mt. 25:14-30. God gives each of us talents or treasures that he expects us to use and multiply to the best of our ability for His glory. The Parable clearly shows the need for the stewards (us) to take action and responsibility for increasing their talents which can certainly include education and training. I'm sure you don't expect all scientific discovery to wait for infused knowledge from the Holy Spirit. So why do you reject education and training in the healing sciences?

      Delete
    4. I used the description of their training methods to illustrate that their knowledge did not wholly come from God. Do many of these doctors have God given talents, they should, things like intelligence and compassion could be listed among them. Intelligence and compassion are also gifts shared for example by persons who believe in Faith healing.

      So far in my life it has worked 100%, will it always? I will die sometime and then I await a resurrection which is the greatest Faith Healing of them all.

      If a person wants to see a miracle, then they need to live as if their life depended on it.

      Delete
    5. Homeopathic "remedies" is both dangerous and stupid. Telling other people about homeopathic "therapies" is even worse. Chicken noodle soup does nothing, other than to allow a person with an upset stomach to keep their food down, and to keep a person hydrated.

      Most doctor are not clueless most of the time. If they were, they wouldn't be doctors! No university, in its right mind, would give such a degree to someone who was "clueless."

      Also, there is very, very little in the way of documentation where people "mysteriously healed." There is extensive documentation about the effectiveness of modern medicine. In Jesus' times, hell, even his disciples and Mary herself, never really lived much past the age of 40. People now, on average, live up to the age of 80. And quite frequently, up to 100. Due to modern medicine. Not by praying.

      Even though it is not in the Bible, I subscribe to the idea that "god helps those who help themselves." (Even before I became an atheist, I still believed that was true.)

      Delete
    6. Oh, and uh, one other thing: Using guinea pigs, cadavers, and studying microbes....did not those things also come from god? Everything in this universe supposedly came from god. Are we not, when we study science, in effect learning about the universe as god created it, and therefore, learning more about god's nature? Take a walk outside at night and look up at the stars. There is much, much more out there than what is in the Bible.

      Doctors are only studying the works of god when they study for their medical degree. Sure, what they study is not from the Bible. But what they study are still works from god.

      Delete
  26. I too have seen people come away from a doctor better than when they arrived. Some didn't fair so well. I've seen people shun doctors, over, and over. Once in a while they recover, most of the time they either are not healed, or die. Was their faith too weak, or was it the will of God for them to die? If it was the will of God, then there was no way anyone was going to change it. Not a doctor, nobody. If they were tempting the lord, then they may have committed suicide. When their faith in being healed is gone, and they're just laying around waiting for the sweet release of death, that is not faith healing. When your ill, and your faith in being healed is strong that's one thing. But just to say" I know I'm sick but I'm not willing to do anything about it, and I don't have any confidence in God to heal me" then that's suicide. I don't care what lable you put on it, if you are not supremely confident, and faithful, then your just killing yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  27. My upbringing was in the church of Christian scientists., the more I read, I think your childhood was as similar to mine as could be. I'm older and a bit wiser now, but I still struggle with a lot of the same issues that you do. If you don't mind me asking Suzi how long did it take for you to feel good about yourself again. You must have really struggled. And what avenues did you have to go down. Was it more spiritual counseling, or psychological. I know that's pretty personal, but we can't be the only ones in this position, it our answer may help more than just myself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Legion,

      These are the questions I address in my book. I'm on page 218 and still writing! Too much to post here.

      I would love to talk off-line with you. Can you send me an email?

      Delete
    2. Also, there is a man in Caldwell, Id who says he is a preacher sent by God, I forget his name. I meet him at my brothers services, and did not care for him at all. He is baptizing people and so forth though.

      Delete
  28. Walter White was not the only preacher in Oregon City, Ernest Nichols preached until Walter got rid of him back in the 60's. Nichols owned the 76 station at the corner of Molalla and I think Pleasant, just up from the Whites store.

    ReplyDelete

The catchpa has been removed to enable easier commenting. Spam and irrelevant comments will be deleted.