How many folks in the
FOC have never attended a church service that included a sermon? How many have
never seen a live baptism (as opposed to seeing one in a movie)?
Legend has it that when Walter White was
alive, he invited preachers from other denominations to come to the building on Molalla Avenue and deliver sermons. After the guest preacher was done,
they would debate the points of the man’s sermon.
Older ones also say that Walter encouraged
members of his flock to visit other churches. He said if they stuck around long
enough they would discover the other churches’ faults. He told folks to come to
him with questions that came up from visiting these other services.
Walter encouraged it,
and any folks who take his advice are guaranteed to learn something from the
experience. Why not try it? I'm not saying you should leave permanently - as I'm sure Walter was not - but why not see what church is like in other denominations?
.jpg) |
| Walter White (standing - right), his three brothers: Orville (seated - left), Clarence (standing - left), and Melvine (seated - right) with their mother, Eva White |
You obviously don't have an agenda! This is more proof that you simply want to tell your life story. You are so full of your self it makes me sick. What makes you think you have all the answers for the foc church? Do you believe you have some sort of calling to enlighten our church? Or is this just you telling your story? Come on Suzi you are obviously trying to get people to leave. What does it matter to you what we do with our lives. I know no one here cares what you do with yours. I think it's time for you to get a life or atleast focus on yours not ours!
ReplyDeleteYour reaction is typical from someone who is afraid. What are you afraid of? Obviously I do not know who you are but I can guess what your fear is. Are you afraid that someone you care about will visit another church, then realize that nothing the FOC does today is biblical? Then the person will leave and you may feel the need to shun them, is that what you are afraid of?
DeleteIf not then what is wrong with visiting other churches, other than being forbidden to do so by your church?
If Susie's agenda is to bring true followers of GOD to the truth, the that's a pretty great agenda. You might not like the idea of your children finding God somewhere other than where you led them, but it doesn't make it a bad direction to go. Accept the idea of leaving the FOC for a more fulfilling life and you won't be so offended.
DeleteI don't get it. Where does all of the animosity come from? Why do the "anonymous" take things so personally? I don't see that Suzi is "trying to get people to leave", just encouraging them to seek out what is truth for themselves. How can you know dark without light, how can you know good without bad or how can you know truth without hearing the false? Every decision comes by comparison, and from what I've read here, FOC people don't have anything to compare their "truth" with. You asked "What does it matter to you what we do with our lives.", well the bible says, "love thy neighbor as thyself." (Matthew 22:39) I would hope that if anyone had learned of "Good News", that they would share it with others! That's what each of us is called to do, to share the Good News! Instead of writing anonymous insults or firing sharp-toned accusations at Suzi, I see two options. One is to stop reading and replying to this blog and go about your life or two, read with an open mind and heart and seek for yourself what is truth by reading and studying the Bible. It's words are sharper than any two-edged sword and will cut to the heart of the matter, He WILL speak to you! If you will seek HIM, you WILL find HIM, it's a promise! 1 Chronicles 28:9
ReplyDeleteShame, the animosity comes from shame Deborah. These people(ex-followers) were never supposed to be heard of again, but they're baaaack! The truth hurts.
DeleteSorry, I meant to sign that!
ReplyDeleteDeborah Baines
Why would I care about your opinion either? I can see that you read. I wonder what your interpritation is of 1 corinthians 14-34 is?
ReplyDeleteAt least there are a few Bible verses the FOC men know and love. Is Suzi speaking at your church? Didn't think so.
DeleteHow about John 6:53 and following.
DeleteJohn 6-53 is for people that weren't "born holy", the FOC post 69ers aren't bound to any of that. In the master bible it's blacked out with magic marker. I had to go buy a worly bible to even look it up. Let's keep the subject matter to something I can "follow", I don't want to have to buy any more worly bibles, excuse me while I go burn this one, I don't want it in my house!
DeleteAnon 1
My opinion is that Walter did not encourage people to visit churches to learn from them, but to learn that they were all wrong in some way and the FOC was the only right church. At least the only right church that they knew about.
ReplyDeleteDo you think Walter would approve of the FOC as it is today?
DeleteMost of what Walter taught has been thrown out or abandoned so no he would not approve of the FOC today.
DeleteSuzi this is a good post. I love reading the comments from all your post. I do believe your 'agenda' is to inform not anything selfish.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 14-34? It looks as though you've started a church Suzie! LOL! Now just don't speak! But you have to give them credit for mentioning the bible at all.
ReplyDeleteDon't read Romans 16-12, he thanks a woman for her labor in the lord, she must've cleaned his house.
DeleteSuzi you have started something beautiful. truth. your truth and the truth of others. those in the church that are reading and posting are telling their truth as they know it. it is a beginning of enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteThat realy got all you women.... oopps. all you people fired up!
ReplyDeleteI would like to hear a sermon at another church. I don't know where to look to find a church that the 5 signs are working. If anyone has any idea's please post.
ReplyDeleteThat's an interesting point
DeleteIs it possible the the signs were for a conversion tool for the apostles that they might convert the unbeliever to the person of Christ. Is it possible that at that time the new testament was not written, it was being played out. When we have the new testament we can turn to certain scriptures to convert a person to Jesus. What were these signs used for. I believe that they were used to show the person of Jeaus Christ. If I am already a believer than do I need converted. I believe it is possible that these signs are in the mission field. But I do not need to see these signs and wonders to believe. The bible teaches about those who seek after a sign. Jesus teaches to seek him not a sign. Ask, knock, and seek. This is a promise from our lord. I believe if one starts by asking, knocking and seeking you will with out a doubt find jesus. This comes from God, Christ who can not lie. Let God be true and all men be liers. If you do these that he will do his part. But there is a task for us to do. There is something we must do! Ask, knock,and seek. He can raise stones to worship him. It is all in free will he will not force anyone to worship him. The choice is yours. I went to the oc foc for 42 years. One must ask himself are these signs working here.
The signs no longer appear to work in oc. That is why I would be willing to listen somewhere else. I might even listen if a church had some of the signs. I am not mocking simply asking. I only want the truth.
DeleteNow that is an interesting comment. Anon, going to a church that has these five signs will not make the sermon better, not even a church that drinks poison and handles snakes. You have to stop thinking that way.
DeleteThe purpose of gathering with other believers is to worship God. When the disciples of Jesus meet together it is because of their unity in Christ. The teaching of His word and encouragement we give to one another is extremely important for growth, discipleship and maturity in Christ. Ministry to the world is also something the church is called to do — we do this through an outreach of mercy and evangelism. These are just a few ways we can glorify God as a body.
Secondly, Mark didn’t actually write 16:9-20, we can know this because it’s not in the earliest manuscripts — it was added later. I’m not saying you can’t find any value in those verses,or that you should take them out of your bible. But if you put off fruitful gathering with the saints for the wrong reasons (because you put hope into one difficult section of scripture and miss the point of God’s word) you will not be the good ground that hears the word, understands the word and is fruitful.
Paul addresses the issue of signs in 1st Corinthians 13:8-13, he says these gifts or signs will cease or be done away with but when the perfect comes the partial will be done away. he refers to these signs as childish, and to be done away with. Not that the things of God are childish but it was for edifying the first church. It's amazing when you read a scripture in context how it changes the over all teaching, rather than what you've been told.
DeleteFirst off I don't care what Brian has to say. He is impressed with himself, I am not.
DeleteGarth it kinda sounds like you were making excuses for your church. I don't think you or anyone else has the authority to change the word of God.
I asked a question about specfic churches, instead of trying to answer you tried to make my question seem unreasonable. I already knew your church is not what I am looking for. I would like to find something that matches the word. That doesn't meen I am looking for some crazy backwoods church that handles snakes like its sport or drinks poison on purpose, but you already knew that. I just want the truth not someones version of truth the true word of Jesus Christ.
Feel free not to reply if you can't answer the question or if you are Brian Moore.
And this is the justification that we have about us, trying to silence someone who would dare speak out against your doctrine because of age or whatever, you don't like what I have to say because it is different than anything you have ever heard, like the young baby being transferred to more solid food you spit it out all over the face of the one feeding because you are afraid of anything that is different.
DeleteNope that's not it. I don't want to argue with you. I do not like you. I have no respect for you. You do not have any of the answers for any question I have. The question I asked isn't about you. It that plain enough for you or would you like to try and tell me again what my problem with you is.
DeleteA person should not be looking for signs, they should be looking for Jesus! The mindset of the ex followers are wrong so we might as well just stay here and do nothing has got to cease if you would like results, if any of you had any gumption at all, you wouldn't have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11) but no one has any backbone to stand up for what's right.
DeleteSomeone referred to "the 5 signs". What are the 5 signs?
DeleteAlso, people keep calling Walter White the last true prophet. He was not a prophet, he was a charlatan. The oil he was slathered with was snake oil. He thought so highly of himself, he superceded the word of God. How could White know more than God? He ended baptism, the Bible did not.
I posted a blog about the five signs here: http://suzanneshumaker.blogspot.com/2011/11/signs-of-true-believer.html
DeleteWalter White was certainly human and fallible, as we all are. It's impossible to know what is in another man's heart - specifically one who is long dead. We must move on.
There will be a Church of the Firstborn meeting this weekend in Brownsville, OR.
DeleteI'm obviously ignorant to other churches, but is tithing required to go to any church? I've heard that it is, then some say its not. I just want to know what to expect.
DeleteNo. Most churches take an "offering" where they pass a bucket/plate around. It is voluntary - nobody will confront you (or likely even notice) if you don't contribute. Most of the time, the pastor will say, "If you are visiting us for the first time, you are not expected to give." If you join a church, get baptized, etc. it is something that is expected, but not enforced.
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteAs I read again my previous comment and your reply, I realized how unhelpful my comment was.
I was brash and disrespectful toward you, when you were simply asking a question. I apologize and ask that you would forgive me. Please know I’m not trying to change God’s word, and I definitely believe in the miraculous workings of God.
Again, I’m very sorry for my comment.
Garth, you made a very interesting comment considering the authorship of the final passages of Mark. I am aware that there are a great many that accept that statement in the world of biblical "scholarship" but it is genuinely based upon misinformation from 19thy century German biblical scholars who did not even believe in God much less the signs. For example the Diatesssaron compiled by Tatian in the 2d century, 2-300 years before these so called "earliest manuscripts" contains the passages in their entirety. Also of the three "manuscripts" one does indeed contain it and another leaves of a deliberate spacing not found elsewhere for it's insertion, a tacit admissal of it being included but perhaps lost, and not a later addition as some have supposed. There is much more vidence to the ending's existence and ask yourself if mark would have intentionally left his gospel ending on the note that the "women ...were afraid."? Not much of a positive ending!
DeleteBrian, I was not understanding what you were interpreting out of I Cor. 13. Is it that the gifts/signs will eventually fade or that they have already disappeared?
Darren Russell
Also the Church of the First Born believes in the gifts, and does not demand tithes or even pass a basket in any place I have seen.
DeleteDarren.
Maybe I miss understood the verse, but someone has brought it to my attention that maybe it is when Christ returns, I'm not sure. Probably just a misunderstanding, I'm only human.
DeleteDarren,
DeleteThere is more to it than the manuscript evidence. The verses themselves contain Greek words and expressions uncommon to Mark, there are stylistic differences as well. To answer your question about the ending seeming abrupt, you have to ask yourself what is it Mark wanted to communicate. At the end of verse eight the women fled from the tomb because trembling and astonishment had seized them. The women clearly didn’t expect the resurrection, if they had why would they be going to anoint the body, and why would they wonder about rolling away the stone? The angel explicitly directs them to look where Jesus was laid, and tells them He has risen. This is what Mark wants us to get; Jesus has risen and they were not expecting it.
I am very concerned that I may have caused someone to doubt in the scriptures, in hindsight I shouldn’t have brought up the issue on this forum. Let me be clear that God in His sovereignty has kept the scriptures just the way they are, that is what we need to know. I’m simply saying it really doesn’t look as if Mark wrote 9-20, but it definitely is part of the bible. The only reason I mentioned it is to caution others to not try and change biblical doctrine based on this section— be wise and use caution. As far as the content of these verses, most of it can be found elsewhere in the New Testament. We do need to be clear that picking up serpents and drinking deadly poison isn’t a command, but a promise of protection.
My biggest concern is that someone would put an unhealthy emphasis upon these signs. Look, if these five were bundled together everywhere else in the bible, we could say having these five has a special significance, as if the true church will offer evidence by showing the full package of signs. But there are bigger things to be looking for. The text says these signs will follow those who believe, but it does not say everyone who believes will have these signs. If we try to force any other meaning upon the text we are reading something into the text. The bigger question is what do you believe? And what are the fruits? There will be many in the last day who will claim to have done many wonderful works in His name (Matt 7:22). When you look at Matthew 7, you see that these are the same kinds of signs as in Mark 16 and Jesus will say to these people who claimed these signs “I never knew you” because they were not real believers.
With so many scriptures about the purpose of the church, the church will be very visible even without these five signs, and the absence of these five signs should not hinder anyone from visiting a body of believers. A church that clearly proclaims the gospel of Jesus is a good place to start.
Garth
DeleteI like your way of thinking. From now on anytime I find a verse that doesn't fit what I want to do I will say it wasn't written by who the bible says. Then I can throw it out and make up whatever fits my way of living. Maybe you could write the Garth Young version so we could know what Jesus was really trying to say. The rest of the world isn't smart enuff to know what parts we should remove. But I am sure with your help we find a new truth.
I would say Garth should think about what revelations 22/19 says. But why bother talking scripture with someone who has the authority to change what the bible says.
Deleteor you could just go to the FOC where there is no bible and to bring one or discuss it would cause ridicule. No need to worry about changing a verse or two, the whole bible is not there.
DeleteGarth, I do see where signs can become emphasized above other matters but feel you have chosen a dangerous way of arguing the point. Either the passage IS scripture or it is not, there is no middle ground as you seem to suggest. Once the "earliest manuscript" argument is debunked, which it is, the internal language argument holds little weight. If we were to use that argument then nearly every verse of the NT would be thrown out, in fact the same critics that use that argument have indeed thrown virtually the entire biblical text out. I do not see that your explanation concerning Mark's purpose of the ending, thought provoking as it is, is plausible; it would do no good if the resurrection left the women in fear and under orders not to tell others.
DeleteThese signs following the believers should not be interpreted that every believer follows these signs.
Darren
Brian, the gifts will definitely dissappear at some time. I could not even conceive of why we would need gifts or signs in the eternal, when we could no longer die the gift of healing becomes absolutely moot.
DeleteStill that passage is best interpreted by Paul himself who said under inspiration at the beginning of his letter, "That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
That day has not arrived yet, the gifts do stand as a testimony to God's grace and power and to his son's redemptive work. And the purpose of these gifts is to bring us to that day blameless. Ephesians 4 uses similar wording for the purpose of the gifts , "for the perfecting of the saints...that we be no more children..."
Darren
How about yours Deborah? Or yours suzi?
ReplyDeleteHow about yours. How are those signs working in the foc. Also how was the sermon last sun. Was that ten songs or nine. Was the name of Jesus mentioned off the pulpit last sun.
DeleteIf you are asking about my church, it Is a non-denominational, community church. If you truly seek to know Jesus Christ, then look for a church that teaches through the Bible - chapter by chapter, verse by verse, and in context. Jesus is who we ALL should be seeking, not a man or church denomination, or programs. I pray that the Lord will lead you to HIS truth!
DeleteDeborah
I just can't understand why people are so offended that Suzi wants to tell 'her story'. If yours is different, then write your own book, write your own blog. I enjoy hearing Suzi's story, and I would most likely enjoy hearing a well written 'other side'. But I've yet to see that--all I see are people upset because Suzi wants to tell her story. Makes no sense.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I love to attend other church services. I like to see how other people find their way to one God. It's interesting, it doesn't encourage me to leave my church, it is informative and educational and brings me closer to other Christians that may interpret things differently than I do.
And could all the Anonymous people at least start identifying themselves as Anon1, Anon2, etc.? I can't imagine you would have such strong opinions and not be willing to identify yourselves, however, at least make it easier for those of us that stand behind our statements to identify who is arguing with who.
When you have blogs like "should I stay or should I go", with flow charts trying to help convince people to leave, it is no longer "her story". It has became very obvious what her agenda is. That's why less and lesd current members are comenting. Suzi is very cunning and has lured many people to her blog by speeking about some interesting history. But now that she knows her audiance has grown she is trying to put doubt into the foc members and now trying to lead them away. Anyone that can't see that needs to think about what she has written and the order it's in. Had she simply told her story anf then the last few blogs she would have almost no readers. Be carfull Brethren that read these posts!!! Suzanne is very dangerous and she dosen't even realize it. She had caused much confusion and I think she even calls her self an author or writer. I believe that's easy to put together.
ReplyDeletePeople at the FOC have caused their own confusion by teaching over the last few decades things that are extremely unbiblical and yet claiming to be the only right church.
DeleteJust like the churches in the book of Revelation I hope people from the FOC consider the possibility that the candlestick has been removed.
Walter himself had a dream that brethren each had their own doctrine and some of those had snake heads. This was/is a powerful testimony from who most their consider to have been the last apostle.
Then Glenford had a dream that he opened the bible and all of the pages were blank.
Also there was another man that had a dream that he was trying to turn on the lights and he could not.
Even if Suzi's agenda was to convince people to leave what is your agenda? Is it to keep people in a place of no hope? There is hope in Jesus but there is no hope in a church that believes it is the way and has turned from its first love.
It's still "her story" when she says that or makes a flowchart; the great thing about saying anything, written or spoken, is it contributes to the marketplace of ideas.
Deleteno one who disagrees will suddenly up and leave a church because of a flowchart.
first amendment is pretty much awesome.
The truth will set you free brethren. The truth will set you free. I am the LORD and change not. I am the same yesterday today and forever. The truth will set you free. Speak on suzi. And anyone else that has anything to say that coensides with the bible.
ReplyDeleteInteresting stuff. Kinda like bringing the dialectic into faith.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was a kid, we tried several churches before the one my parents still belong to.
This is the first blog entry that has given me any inclination to believe that I ever would have attended this particular church for any length of time. This is a snapshot of the church in the bloom of its youth when it was active and dynamic within the community, welcoming fresh ideas and people.
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that W.W. attracted a close following through his openness and transparency, which group then proceeded to become tightly closed and resistant after his death. To every thing there is a season...
amen
ReplyDelete