Darren Russell, a member of the Church of the First Born, agreed to write an article explaining his practice of faith healing. Please read this with an open mind if you're interested in understanding this practice, but keep in mind that Darren is addressing "those Christians who would like a thoughtful scriptural basis for this teaching, not towards the atheist/secularists who will never accept any biblical argument above scientific consensus."
Next Sunday, I will publish an article
written by Jerry Patton, a former FOC member and the grandson of an FOC
preacher, which addresses this issue from another perspective.
* * * *
Why I Choose Not
To Use Physicians
by Darren Russell
I found Suzi's blog one day while flipping through internet pages on a site called The Apologetics Index, a site supposedly dedicated to scriptural answers for Christians. Before I found the Followers of Christ Church with Suzi's link, I ran across this page at apologeticsindex.org concerning the body I grew up in, which has the same healing doctrine. The site stated we are “a group of churches whose faith healing practices violate biblical teaching on the subject. The church's doctrines and practices on this issue constitute a form of spiritual abuse. The problem of this church's approach is evident from these news items...” Then it went on to cite newspaper articles as the sum of evidence.
I searched the site looking for the scriptural arguments that supported their claim and found this on faith healing what the bible teaches
The Bible does not condemn, forbid, or even discourage the use of medicines or other proper medical care. Matter of fact, Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke, was a doctor.
And the apostle Paul advised Timothy to use some wine for his stomach problems:
Stop drinking only water, and use a little
wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses. - Source: 1 Timothy
5:23
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
- Source: Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
- Source: Mark 2:17
Some may find these to be decent scriptural arguments,
but I do not find them at all very compelling. I intend to address these and
then give several scriptural reasons as to why I do not utilize modern day
physicians. My response is directed towards those Christians who would like a
thoughtful scriptural basis for this teaching, not towards the
atheist/secularists who will never accept any biblical argument above
scientific consensus.
That Luke was a physician is not contested, but what manner of physician was he? Does the mere mention of his occupation in scripture grant divine approval? I don't think so. One apostle speaks of Rahab the harlot (James 2:25) and Luke mentions Cornelius the centurion (Acts 10:22) but I cannot perceive of any making the argument that they are blessed vocations, especially in lieu of the context of other more direct scriptures. Still Rahab was faithful, Cornelius just, and Luke beloved; all descriptions of the person not the occupation. I would also think that Luke, who may have obtained a healing ministry the same as Paul, whom he was companion to, would not have much need to use a medical training in the presence of the Apostles. Luke says so very much himself in recording:
That Luke was a physician is not contested, but what manner of physician was he? Does the mere mention of his occupation in scripture grant divine approval? I don't think so. One apostle speaks of Rahab the harlot (James 2:25) and Luke mentions Cornelius the centurion (Acts 10:22) but I cannot perceive of any making the argument that they are blessed vocations, especially in lieu of the context of other more direct scriptures. Still Rahab was faithful, Cornelius just, and Luke beloved; all descriptions of the person not the occupation. I would also think that Luke, who may have obtained a healing ministry the same as Paul, whom he was companion to, would not have much need to use a medical training in the presence of the Apostles. Luke says so very much himself in recording:
And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick
of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid
his hands on him, and healed him. So when this was done, others also, which had
diseases in the island, came, and were healed: Who also honoured US with many
honours; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were
necessary.
- Acts 28:8-10
It was Luke himself who noted the case of a woman who
“had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,”
(Luke 8:43) which is hardly a statement you would expect from “the beloved
physician.”
Concerning Paul advising Timothy to “Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.” I do not see that his statement can be inferred to mean anything more than giving a dietary recommendation based upon experience. Paul had already spent considerable time in Ephesus, where Timothy had been left and seemed well aware that the water there was not potable and the source of his sicknesses.
“They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Every use of the word “physician” mentioned by Jesus was in the form of a proverb, a popular saying, and used to refer to himself. The word in fact in the KJV is only mentioned 11 times, with 4 of those referring to Christ “Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself” (Luke 4:23). These verses surely do not prove anything concerning the medical profession; Christ healed both bodies and souls through power.
When reading, people do not always sense the sarcasm that seems more obvious when heard. Tones set a context, the spirit of a conversation. In 5 of the 7 other references to “physicians” we find this to be the case. “Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?” (Jer. 8:22) says God through the prophet Jeremiah to a back slidden nation. “Ye are all physicians of no value” (Job 13:4) speaks Job of his false friends.
Do any of these verses prove that physicians are contrary to God? No. But they do not show them to be approved either.
The vast majority of Christians throughout the world believe in miracles; that divine intervention is possible. Still most use hospitals and doctors where they are available. I choose not to, not because there is a written command against it, but because I believe my faith leads me to that decision.
Concerning Paul advising Timothy to “Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.” I do not see that his statement can be inferred to mean anything more than giving a dietary recommendation based upon experience. Paul had already spent considerable time in Ephesus, where Timothy had been left and seemed well aware that the water there was not potable and the source of his sicknesses.
“They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Every use of the word “physician” mentioned by Jesus was in the form of a proverb, a popular saying, and used to refer to himself. The word in fact in the KJV is only mentioned 11 times, with 4 of those referring to Christ “Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself” (Luke 4:23). These verses surely do not prove anything concerning the medical profession; Christ healed both bodies and souls through power.
When reading, people do not always sense the sarcasm that seems more obvious when heard. Tones set a context, the spirit of a conversation. In 5 of the 7 other references to “physicians” we find this to be the case. “Is there no balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?” (Jer. 8:22) says God through the prophet Jeremiah to a back slidden nation. “Ye are all physicians of no value” (Job 13:4) speaks Job of his false friends.
Do any of these verses prove that physicians are contrary to God? No. But they do not show them to be approved either.
The vast majority of Christians throughout the world believe in miracles; that divine intervention is possible. Still most use hospitals and doctors where they are available. I choose not to, not because there is a written command against it, but because I believe my faith leads me to that decision.
I believe in God and that he has both the power and will
to heal us. “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he
may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for
you.” ( I Peter 5:6-7) I find it comforting to know that he cares. A minister
in my church recently went to visit his daughter in the hospital who has
cancer. The doctors meaning well explained to him they were powerless to change
her condition. “I believe so,” he told them, “but you don't know my God.” He is
right; he knows that God has all abilities to change her situation. “There is
one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy “ (Jas. 4:12).
I believe healing was specially reserved by God in the same manner forgiveness is. “Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases.” (Ps. 103:2,3) Jesus once asked, “For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?” (Matt. 9:5) Both come from God, he is the sole proprietor of these institutions.
I believe faith healing is a sign that follows the believers, giving assurance to the message of the gospel. “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name ... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover...And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.” (Mark 16:17-20) “and being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.” (Acts 15:22) Luke says Apostle Paul and his company remained awhile in“speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands..” (Acts 14:3) I fail to see how using doctors would promote God's word, it would only affirm the medical industry.
I believe that Christ gave gifts to the church, including healings, for our benefit until that day when we should all arrive to perfection (I Cor.12:28,30; 13:10) and not need them any longer. God wants us to pursue these gifts (I Cor. 14:1) and not be behind in any gift until his return (I Cor. 1:7).
I believe healing was specially reserved by God in the same manner forgiveness is. “Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits: Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases.” (Ps. 103:2,3) Jesus once asked, “For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?” (Matt. 9:5) Both come from God, he is the sole proprietor of these institutions.
I believe faith healing is a sign that follows the believers, giving assurance to the message of the gospel. “These signs shall follow them that believe; In my name ... they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover...And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.” (Mark 16:17-20) “and being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.” (Acts 15:22) Luke says Apostle Paul and his company remained awhile in“speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands..” (Acts 14:3) I fail to see how using doctors would promote God's word, it would only affirm the medical industry.
I believe that Christ gave gifts to the church, including healings, for our benefit until that day when we should all arrive to perfection (I Cor.12:28,30; 13:10) and not need them any longer. God wants us to pursue these gifts (I Cor. 14:1) and not be behind in any gift until his return (I Cor. 1:7).
I believe that the same faith toward God that can heal is
the same faith that obtains forgiveness of sins and salvation, giving personal
assurance of God's might. Paul was clear there is only one Lord, and one faith
which saves (Eph. 4:5). This faith which healed (Luke 7:50; 18:42) is the same
by which we are“buried in baptism” ( Col. 2:12). Healing when it arrives is a
very powerful confirmation of God's desire and ability to resurrect us to salvation.
Does any of this mean that Christians never get sick? Far from it. I believe that as a son, suffering and chastisement is from God. “And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?” (Heb.12:5-7). Paul also was afflicted with a physical impairment, “a thorn in the flesh” not because of a sin, but so he would not be “exalted above measure”. Paul says, “ Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities” (II Cor. 12:7-10). We should all have this attitude, but I do not see how a doctor fits well into this scenario. Our sufferings are to teach us, and by ameliorating them we may be rejecting what he has to say, even Christ himself learned this way (Heb. 5:8).
I believe God's knowledge is complete, man's incomplete. That doctors are trained in their field is not doubted, but still, they lack total comprehension. A co-worker once asked me why I did not go to doctors. Knowing he was not particularly religious but fanatical about his vehicles I asked him who did his mechanic work. “I always take my cars to the factory dealer for repairs”, he said, “they are the ones who made it, they best know how to fix it.” I agreed. And so I choose to go to my maker and not to the “shade tree mechanic” who has something less than a perfect knowledge.
Does any of this mean that Christians never get sick? Far from it. I believe that as a son, suffering and chastisement is from God. “And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?” (Heb.12:5-7). Paul also was afflicted with a physical impairment, “a thorn in the flesh” not because of a sin, but so he would not be “exalted above measure”. Paul says, “ Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities” (II Cor. 12:7-10). We should all have this attitude, but I do not see how a doctor fits well into this scenario. Our sufferings are to teach us, and by ameliorating them we may be rejecting what he has to say, even Christ himself learned this way (Heb. 5:8).
I believe God's knowledge is complete, man's incomplete. That doctors are trained in their field is not doubted, but still, they lack total comprehension. A co-worker once asked me why I did not go to doctors. Knowing he was not particularly religious but fanatical about his vehicles I asked him who did his mechanic work. “I always take my cars to the factory dealer for repairs”, he said, “they are the ones who made it, they best know how to fix it.” I agreed. And so I choose to go to my maker and not to the “shade tree mechanic” who has something less than a perfect knowledge.
I find in the bible this same thing is
taught. In the book of Jeremiah the prophet has been sent by God against Judah
to “utter my judgments against them touching all their wickedness” (1:16). He
explains, , “For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the
fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that
can hold no water” (2:13). They had forsaken the knowledge of God, and replaced
it with the knowledge of the peoples they were around. God asks, “Is there no
balm in Gilead; is there no physician there? why then is not the health of the
daughter of my people recovered?” (8:22) to illustrate that what they were
dependent upon was not of him and of no value to them.
God tells Jeremiah, “Pray not for this
people for their good. When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they
offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will
consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence (contagious
disease)” (14:11,12). The people cry, “why hast thou smitten us, and there is
no healing for us? we looked for peace, and there is no good; and for the time
of healing, and behold trouble!” (14:19) and repent, “We acknowledge, O LORD,
our wickedness, and the iniquity of our fathers: for we have sinned against
thee “ (14:20). They even realize the cause,“Are there any among the vanities
of the Gentiles that can cause rain? or can the heavens give showers? art not
thou he, O LORD our God? therefore we will wait upon thee: for thou hast made
all these things” (14:22).
Jeremiah at last records the previous sin
and the revelation to God's people. “The sin of Judah is written with a pen of
iron, and with the point of a diamond: it is graven upon the table of their
heart...Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh
flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. For he shall be like
the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit
the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited. Blessed
is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. For he shall
be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the
river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and
shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding
fruit....O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed,
and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have
forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters. Heal me, O LORD, and I shall
behealed; save me, and I shall be saved: for thou art my praise. “
(17:1,5-7,13,14)It is a lesson of how God deals with his people, a lesson with
parallels today.
I believe that knowledge may come from God, but that that physicians and the medical community has obtained its knowledge by using methods forbidden by God. “The LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed” (I Sam. 2:3). Daniel and his brethren were gifted knowledge from God, even in the area of sciences (Daniel 1:4,17) but can the medical industry today make that claim? Probably the greatest source of study, contributing to anatomical knowledge, has been the dissection of humans, both autopsies and living persons. Leonardo Davinci was once expelled from that Catholic Church for this very reason. The bible prohibits touching the dead (Num. 19:11,16), except in burial process which must occur the same day (Deut 21:23), or any deriving of benefit from a dead being. ( Daniel Eisenberg, a Jewish M.D. notes that the primary purpose of autopsies “From a medical perspective, autopsy predominantly serves the purpose of improving quality control in medicine. A physician has the opportunity of finding out whether his diagnosis was correct and whether treatment was appropriate.”(aish.com). Surely one cannot consider knowledge gained in this manner as approved by God.
In fact I believe the ethical problems surrounding the medical community have grown considerably, replacing Godly morality with ethical considerations based on extending physical life. We have scientists experimenting with animal parts in human beings, medically supported abortions, extending lives without any quality, all in the name of science and medicine. It is too bad that many now have extended their earthly existence without coming any closer to God. It is as Jesus said, “He that loveth his life shall lose it”, and we should be considering, “he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.” (John 12:25) The case of the mother who dies in childbirth with her child at home avoided all the spiritual ramifications of her counterpart who in a hospital is induced to make a “moral” decision to save her own life or that of her child's. Where the decision is left in God's hands, there is no quandary or judgment, just a clean conscience. For me, a clean conscience is preferable to a longer life. The medical industry has blurred ethical and moral standards.
I believe that most of mankind has fallen into idol worship by placing the medical profession and their practices above God and his standards. All too often in life I witness men challenging God and his precepts. Even when that person becomes frightfully ill, he will eschew God's promises and head straight to a doctor. The doctor, he will hear. If he is prescribed medications, or counseled a surgical technique, he will oblige. After all, his health is at stake. Doctors have become the people's new priest. It is a relationship that will lead to downfall, as in the case of King Asa, who once believed in God with his heart, but turned against the prophets of God who warned him of his unbelief toward God and reliance upon men. It is recorded in II Chronicles 16:12“Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.” The verse shows if anything, how diametrically opposed physicians and God are.
There is no warrant in the scriptures to use a physician, but I find many reasons in the scriptures to depend on God and his ministers.
I believe that knowledge may come from God, but that that physicians and the medical community has obtained its knowledge by using methods forbidden by God. “The LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed” (I Sam. 2:3). Daniel and his brethren were gifted knowledge from God, even in the area of sciences (Daniel 1:4,17) but can the medical industry today make that claim? Probably the greatest source of study, contributing to anatomical knowledge, has been the dissection of humans, both autopsies and living persons. Leonardo Davinci was once expelled from that Catholic Church for this very reason. The bible prohibits touching the dead (Num. 19:11,16), except in burial process which must occur the same day (Deut 21:23), or any deriving of benefit from a dead being. ( Daniel Eisenberg, a Jewish M.D. notes that the primary purpose of autopsies “From a medical perspective, autopsy predominantly serves the purpose of improving quality control in medicine. A physician has the opportunity of finding out whether his diagnosis was correct and whether treatment was appropriate.”(aish.com). Surely one cannot consider knowledge gained in this manner as approved by God.
In fact I believe the ethical problems surrounding the medical community have grown considerably, replacing Godly morality with ethical considerations based on extending physical life. We have scientists experimenting with animal parts in human beings, medically supported abortions, extending lives without any quality, all in the name of science and medicine. It is too bad that many now have extended their earthly existence without coming any closer to God. It is as Jesus said, “He that loveth his life shall lose it”, and we should be considering, “he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.” (John 12:25) The case of the mother who dies in childbirth with her child at home avoided all the spiritual ramifications of her counterpart who in a hospital is induced to make a “moral” decision to save her own life or that of her child's. Where the decision is left in God's hands, there is no quandary or judgment, just a clean conscience. For me, a clean conscience is preferable to a longer life. The medical industry has blurred ethical and moral standards.
I believe that most of mankind has fallen into idol worship by placing the medical profession and their practices above God and his standards. All too often in life I witness men challenging God and his precepts. Even when that person becomes frightfully ill, he will eschew God's promises and head straight to a doctor. The doctor, he will hear. If he is prescribed medications, or counseled a surgical technique, he will oblige. After all, his health is at stake. Doctors have become the people's new priest. It is a relationship that will lead to downfall, as in the case of King Asa, who once believed in God with his heart, but turned against the prophets of God who warned him of his unbelief toward God and reliance upon men. It is recorded in II Chronicles 16:12“Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.” The verse shows if anything, how diametrically opposed physicians and God are.
There is no warrant in the scriptures to use a physician, but I find many reasons in the scriptures to depend on God and his ministers.
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
James 5:13-16
Hopefully for the reader, I have presented a biblical case against the use of physicians sufficient to illustrate the spiritual benefits of reliance upon God, and to destroy the myth that our “faith healing practices violate biblical teaching.”
Darren that was truly inspired, if you ask a Follower why they do what they do, you would never, in a million years, get that answer. Not to belittle them in their resolve, it is strong, they just have no idea why they do what they do. I hope this is read broadly throughout the church. But I can tell you now that the mercy, and grace that you've included in your opinion will be lost on them. It will be quoted, as if it was always their own opinion, then used to beat up brethren for seeking medical help. But at least they might understand their own faith for once.repeating that this is just what we do is no foundation for faith.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Anonymous Apr 11, 2012 10:32 AM you would never get that answer from a follower including myself. I to believe God has the power to heal all. I am right now brought to tears at my family’s current state. When one of us is sick we anoint, we fast, and we have laid hands on each other. I know I am playing church. We are not baptized, we have no leaders, we are left with a lot of thinks so’s and I remembers. If I was to go seek leadership and the word of god I would be banished from everything I have ever known. We have seen this happen. I have heard that this blog is causing confusion and we all know who the author of confusion is. I think this blog is making everyone face what is really going on. It is making us younger persons ask more questions and not just go along, we see a huge problem that the older brethren who have heard preaching who have received the holy ghost who have been told they were full are ignoring.
ReplyDeleteGod have mercy on us oh lord, who have decisions to make.
This blog is causing awareness, it's only confusing to find out that everything you've been told all your life is contrary to the true nature of Religion. It's confusing to become aware that despite your truest, best efforts, you're falling short of your goal of earning salvation, it can't be earned.
Deletethe holly ghost is not just for the righteous in that church. i know this. i grew up there. after many years lost i began praying in ernest. i believed that only god could deliver me from the wretch i was. it is true after praying and finally listening i could feel and hear the holly ghost prompting. it was not instant. it took me years to listen and obey what god wanted thru the promptings of the holly ghost.
Deleteeach person at theat church can receive the holy ghost. you can know for yourself what to do. it is not easy to turn away from what you know and the love you feel in your family and church. however, you can pray and fast and know the truth. listen to what the holly ghost tells you. when you are ready god does make a way. even if it seems impossible to you.
This is more of a magazine article than a blog post, surprisingly, I focused and made it through most of it. :) I will never, ever, understand why anyone would turn down a helping hand when they are ill or in pain, especially from someone who has studied the human body, medicine, etc., and although there is no absolutes in medicine, it benefits more than harms. However, I do see how your personal interpretation has led you to your own decisions and I respect your right to do whatever you chose to your own body. What I don't approve of are those that force the non-use of medicine on their children, who are at the mercy of their parents. If a child dies because of their parents choices it is by man's law murder or at best, man slaughter and it should be. While we are on this earth, we must abide by man's law, too. So, if you choose to not seek medical help if you are sick or in pain, I have no problem with it, but until children are old enough to make those decisions for themselves, thank GOD for the enforcers of man's law that are there to protect them.
ReplyDeleteIs there a written command against going to a physician? Are you going to hell if you do go?
ReplyDeleteDarren, your logic fails on many levels. Too many to address in one anonymous post but I would like to address a few. Very few people have any problem with you, as an adult, never going to a doctor, in fact most would support your right to make that decision for yourself. However, what has been seen in both the church of the firstborn and the FOC is that children die of things that doctors regularly heal. Take appendicitis for example, doctors help and often cure, without doctors death is the result. There has been more than one criminal case over this. I do not know this by faith, I know it because it has happened over and over again and both you and I can see it with our eyes. You say healing is a sign that follows believers, then why is death the result? Too many people are pretending they have the gift of healing.
ReplyDeleteThe same faith that you claim allows forgiveness of sins and salvation is the same faith that allows your belief in faith healing. By that logic is it not the same faith that allows you not to use dentists, not to eat food, yet do you? Is it not the same faith that would allow you to fast forty days and nights like Jesus did?, yet do you? Why do you eat food? is your faith too weak? Why draw the line at doctors but not acknowledge the power of faith in other areas?
Colossians 4:14 refers to Luke as the "beloved physician", yet you condemn the profession claiming they used methods "forbidden by God". Just because some doctors may use unscrupulous methods, you reject the whole medical community? and yet apostle Paul referred to Luke as the "beloved physician"?
Luke 10:34 the Samaritan helped the man left "half dead". He did not rely only on faith healing but actually relied on the medical knowledge of the day...
Luke 10:34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
James 5:13-16 says to call the elders. People do not have a problem with calling the elders and having them pray, but where does that forbid doctors?
Lastly, I would say that you, as an adult, should be free to never use a doctor, but I would also say that if your faith was strong enough you could use a doctor and still believe that God's will would be done even at the hospital.
I fully agree with you. God teaches us things with being sick and healed in whatever way He choses. It is ignorance to not seek help to what your level of comfort is. My self I would not get chemo treatments or take many meds as they have horrible side affects, but I would get my appendix out or take an antibiotic....but someone else may use more medicines I would and that is fine for them- personal choices and our own comfort level in our spirit with our heavenly Father. Personally, I like taking natural remedies to help my body as much as possible and believe God put it here for us to use and we should take care of our temple (our body). I agree about the children too and believe it is severe neglect to not get them help.
DeleteGod has had mercy on us he sent us his son. GOD in the flesh. He sent him for you and me. Now it is up to you what you are to do with this information. Go out and seek the word listen pray read. Decide what to do with this man Jesus Christ. Belive confess repent and be baptized in the name of the father son and the holy ghost. Do not let anyone take your crown. You have the power to break free with gods help. Me and my family have done just that yes we are banished from my so called friends and family. But are they truly your friends if they keep you trapped in a place where you are not able to talk scripture. Bring bible to church. Take part in baptism supper or even worship. Is that what god want's ask your self who bennifits from keeping you from these things. Break free of that spirit out there learn of Christ he will not let you down. Ask knock seek. Either Christ is telling the truth or he has lied. What hinderith thou. He has risen and he won't let you down. Test him out don't listen to the think so's and lies anymore. Draw nigh into Christ and he will draw nigh unto you. Prove all things by the word not think so's and I rember's or that's just the way we do it but by the word of god you will not be sorry you submitted to him. Give it to god. Read psalms 27:1 Gal1:10,Matt:10:28
ReplyDeleteIt's remarkable that anyone gets free from that spirit at all. Comfort on this earth is a hard thing to give up for God. Not that you shouldn't be willing to, but the unknown outside of their world must be terrifying to them. If what has been said here is true, it would look like a pretty bleak, dark, scary place with a monster on every street corner. Are they aware that Christians have been practicing outside of their church for centuries? Aside from the freedom you would have, not to be drawn away from God, but closer to him.
DeleteFor those of you who have commented, whether supportively or not , Thank you for taking the time to read it and reply. I will refrain from making any comments until Jerry's article appears on Sunday so that we are not constantly stomping in the same mud. I do not intend on debating these issues but will clarify them and answer some of the direct questions.
DeleteIt was really nice, thanks again.
ReplyDeletei am not willing to let my child die. my child is actually 24 years old. without medicine everyday she will die. no questions asked. i believe in faith healing. i believe in using our faith and our brains and getting help when it is needed. my daughter would like to not take medicine everyday. it hurts her body to put so much medicine in it. give her two days without her medicine and her body starts shutting down. i have enough faith and brains to know she has to keep taking her medication or she will not be here tomorrow. my daughter has been dependent on steroids and thyroid medicine for most of her life. it is something we live with. we have more faith because of her health. we are grateful everyday for the miracle of her being alive.
ReplyDeleteThis is for Suzan... do you censore this blog??? or do you let all replies be read by everyone, so both sides can be heard????
ReplyDeleteSuzie will answer for herself I'm sure, but I can tell you, if she was going to censor posts, she would've done it by now. She has been very accomodating to an open and honest venue????????????????????????????Thanks Suzie
DeleteIt's not possible to change or alter anyone's comments but if a comment is off the topic or a personal attack and clearly without merit, I occasionally delete it (this has happened maybe 5-10 times). Also, for some reason, blogger thinks some comments are "spam" so they don't appear right away.
DeleteThe responder is correct...if you look at the history of comments, I've been called a "liar" and "bitter" on a number of occasions. Those comments are still hanging out there for all to see :)
For a while I had comment moderation turned on, but I realized that staying out of the comments makes things more interesting. I want to read "both" or ALL sides and I'm sure that's true of people who read this blog.
I grew up in a fairly conservative church in Oregon City. It wasn't the FOC though. My Grandfather was the minister of our church, so there was always a lot of pressure to memorize and understand scripture. I hate memorizing scripture, and frankly I'm quite bad at it, but I was always very good at understanding meaning. My Grandfather would often end his prayers with thine Will be done. We were taught that we could ask God for what we want, but as a kindergarten teacher once said to my son, "you get what you get, and you don't throw a fit." There is even an out line for how to pray in Mark. I was taught to thank God for everything in my life, even the bad, because it was designed by God. Asking for healing, wealth, or whatever is part of our communion with God, but God knows what we need and gives us what we need. Medicine and doctors have been given by God. If God wants a person to be blind, deaf, deformed, crippled, or dead, then that is God's Will, and no matter how much we work to stop these things from happening they still happen. It is God's Will in our lives that makes seeking medical care acceptable in most Christian churches.
ReplyDeleteGod's Will will be done no matter what we try. Of course God's will also makes it completely irrational to even bother with praying or anointing. The Will of God is a slippery philosophical point because it either leads you to do nothing at all because it is God's Will, or it leads you to try to subvert God's Will with medical care, or anointing and praying for something other than God's Will.
I, like Suzi, left my home church. When I left my home church though I left Christianity. I know that most Christian preachers try to walk a careful line on this topic, simply because faith healing vs. medical healing leads to attempted subversion of God's Will. It is impossible to subvert God's will, and if it is impossible to subvert his Will then it is impossible for us to have free will. If we have no free will then why do we go to church? Won't we go to heaven even if we don't go to church if it's God's will? Many of the readers here are devoutly religious and I have no problems with that, I do have problems with never thinking about the language in the bible. Think about divine Will deeply, and you may find a crisis of faith. Most Christian churches believe that you work with doctors and prayer to bring healing, and if healing doesn't happen it is God's Will.
What you missed, that the FOC understands is that when things go bad, it's Gods will. When a baby is deformed, treatable, but in some way deficient alongside able bodied people then it's Gods will. You would be wrong to try to get them help to live a normal life, because you would be trying to subvert Gods will. The baby in the news, a hobbled little boy, or sicknesses running rampant is all Gods will. But not only sickness is treated in this way. The state of the church, brethren going to prison, any negative thing is considered Gods will. A woman went to a hospital because she was gravely ill, she got better, that was a lack of faith to them, and absolutely no Thanks to God. The family praised him, but the brotherhood did not. A boy had cancer, got treated, got better, the family praised God, their brethren did not. A young woman was pronounced dead by her family, after a horrible childbirth, the family thought they had lost both mother, and baby. After calling paramedics the mother came around, had the baby, and are both alive and well today. Praise God! To deny the power of God in good things, and only praise him in the bad is twisted to say the least. To deny his power because a doctor was involved, is to deny his will altogether. His will is all powerfull, with resect to Darren, and anyone else who wants to wait on God, I salute you. But, you just can't put a limit on Gods grace, mercy , or will.
ReplyDeleteYou forgot a big policy among the FOC, if they don't take someone into a Doctor, and they don't die, they don't praise God for that either. They take it as a sign that everything they are doing, or have done in the past, is 100% right. The odd thing is, if they weren't feeling guilty for being wrong, why would they need a sign of their correctness.
DeleteDarren called and devorced??? Really? Give me a break!
ReplyDeleteWhat does Darren's "alleged" divorce have to do with his practice of faith healing?
DeleteI say alleged because, as I've said before, I don't personally know Darren or the circumstances of his life or history. If he did go through a divorce, does he need to prove that he was innocent to the world in order to walk with God?
It's sad that some people are so legalistic that they assume that anyone who has ever made a mistake cannot be used by God. Hardly the truth if you look at the men and women God used throughout the Bible.
"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." - James 2:10
The more I learn about darren the less impressed I am.his church has women speak in tongues, a woman confirmed his "calling" and he is divorced. I don't know Darren either, but it seems a little hard to get the whole story out of him. It makes me question the history he has claimed to be an expert on. Call me a "leagalist" if you want but he made a lot claims that suddenly are all worthless as far as I am concerned.
ReplyDeleteHopefully Anony 2:10 AM and others you will become less impressed by men in general and more so by Christ. I am not here to write my biography, it has no bearing on the history of the church and unless I feel there is a lesson in it, there is no point in repeating failures, mine or others'.
DeleteAs far as God's use of women in the gifts will you Anon 2:10 AM explain Luke 2:36,37?
"And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. "
Hopefully you can comment on what is written and before your eyes, since you seem to enjoy commenting upon other items that are not.
The people in the oc foc are very comfortable with there sitituation. Very comfortable indeed. They would rather rip apart tear down another for submitting his life to Christ. Darren I have never met seen or heard of you before. One thing I am sure of is your are a man and have sinned you are a sinner and have need of a saviour. You might even have failures in the future. But you say that you have excepted Christ and I have no doubt to believe you. But the people from the foc in oc have taken the bible out of the picture they like nothing more than to pick at your flaws not realizing that you are a man who is and will continue to sin, but praise god that your sins are, can, and will be forgiven by god. In my experience these people are so comfortable in there position they have isolated them selfs to the point that they have put them selves in the place of god as judge and jury. With out looking inward and seeing that they need that same blood of Christ. That they need a saviour. That god gave his son for the whole world for all that choose to except him. These sad people have become just like the pharisee's who would look and judge Christ and his desiples but not see that they were sinners and could not live up to the law but instead focus on your flaws to point the finger of blame instead of comming to the knowledge of the truth that they too are in need of a saviour. These people have a stiff neck and will not bow there heads to fit the yoke. They are right and no one else is. You can read earlier posts and find the same pattern to tear someone down to make them feel better. To anyone who reads this that attends the foc in oc stop worrying about the person next to you and what they might think of you and start seeking god if you knock seek and ask you will find him. He has made a promiss to you and to the whole world. His arms are stretched out wide. Not only for just the select,chosen,and perfect few that are born into the foc in oc. But to even a sinner like Darren and me. Please take the time out to look at who you are serving. God or the man next to you. Who did Jesus come for the righteous or the sinner. Who did he come for the sick or the well or whole. Thank you for posting Darren and continue to labor
DeleteJudgment like you see from anonymous post 2:10am is normal from FOC because most people there do not believe you are saved by grace, they believe you are saved by good works. They are always looking to get good works and judge those who make mistakes. It was preached for a very long time that you need to earn your salvation, not that it is a gift.
ReplyDeleteI don't read judgment into the post about darrens divorce... it seams to me that someone who has had a calling and then got divorced would know to leave his "calling" out of any conversation. If darren doesn't think this is a biology of his life than he should voice his oppinion and not try to prove his points by talking about a calling that he has fallen from. Seams simple to me.... and now a question for suzanne who claims not to censore this blog... suzanne, you told in one of your pevious posts (in your section on sex ed) that if an outsider was to come into the foc church that a church leader would confront the outsider and that in certain cases that the meating would be canceled if there were outsiders in the building. My question is would you please state one and only one time that a church meeting was stoped or canceled because of an outsider being in the building. Or were you just embelishing for the sake of making your stories seem more dramatic??? Not calling you a lier, just don't believe you.
ReplyDeleteWell, I remember someone coming into the church, wanting to preach, I do remember Glenford dismissing church. I thought it was sad because we drove all the way from Gladstone to go to church. I was probably 8-12 yrs old, as Glenford died when I was 13. So how old are you anonymous?
DeleteI'd also like to know how old this poster is. If his/her spelling is any indicator, I would guess 11-14.
DeleteIt's a little difficult to leave "callings" out of the conversation when one is pressed for answers concerning it. Do I lie about it when asked? Or do I answer the questions, knowing there is an agenda? I'll answer the question every time. " For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" (Rom. 11:29) An Old Testament prophecy concerning Christ is found in Psalm 68:18. "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, FOR THE REBELLIOUS ALSO, that the LORD God might dwell among them." Ephesians 4 applies it to Christ. For any of us to deny our calling, it would be the same as denying Christ's ascension! Having a calling and living up to your calling are simply two different things. "Make your calling and election sure" (II Pet. 1:10), "neglect not the gift that is in thee" (I Tim. 4:14), and the parable of the talents (Matt. 25:14-30) are all examples of how we are all given gifts and callings that remain with us until we are called in to give account for their use at the end.
DeleteMy posts are about two matters; Church History and Church doctrine. I do not intend "to prove my points" by leaning on a "calling", but by Scriptures and historical documentation. I usually cite chapter and verse with my quotes so any can look them up, and as far as the history goes, I have collected it from several sources and have shared them when asked privately.
I am not running for the office of "Apostle to Oregon City" and so I would appreciate that that we stick to the issues in the post, this one happens to be about Faith Healing.
Well said Darren. Particularly the point about not running for the office of Apostle - as that seems to be the agenda.
DeleteTo those who will only hear Truth from those who have lead perfect, sinless lives, my advice is to open your Bibles - that is the only place you will find what you're looking for.
Off topic??? that is why you cencored the question??? I just know your type very well. what type you ask? The type of person who blame the foc church members for there short comings. You never fit in when you were a member because of your very loose morals. When people like you leave you claim its for religon but in all reality its because your guilt drove you out. you now try to justify your lifestyle by lashing out at the church. Many examples are out there that prove my point one example you would be quite familiar with is.... I will use some discretion with names, c s left because of the state of the church like many others and shortly after leaving cs cheated on his wife LS formerly LL and then left her after taking her out of the foc church. If I'm not mistaken I belive you are family with CS.... if you disagree with me that's fine but I knew you and people you messed around with in the church and people that read this blog that are from the foc church need very much to concider the sorce and pay attention to how long post that shed light on who suzanne is and what she is up to stay up before they are censored by her.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to know the real reason I left, go back to my very first blog entry last August. I left by marrying a worldly person so that my family would let me go. I left to gain my freedom. I was very much a virgin bride. And it is a very low blow of you to tell these lies. You are a liar.
DeleteIn regards to the CS/LS/LL situation, are you claiming to be the person CS supposedly cheated with?
You are clearly afraid of the truth...why else would you go on here and post these obvious lies under an ANONYMOUS tag?
I will delete any further lies and slander you post about me, my family members, or anyone else.
Don't like my blog? Don't read it.
I thought I knew Suzie pretty well back in the day. She seemed a little off to me, not stupid so much as off. Now I realize it was because she was operating with half her brain tied behind her back. If she had spoke on the subjects that she's talking about now, she would've been treated as a pariah. She was trying to be a good follower, a little too quiet, not someone to say just the right thing all of the time, and when she did, it wasn't always what you wanted to hear. BUT, I can also say That I NEVER knew her to be a bad, or immoral person, and it's a little too transparent that she's all of the sudden a horrible, immoral person? Now that she's shedding light on a subject you'd rather was never brought up. Pitiful!
Deletei agree. suzi has always spoke her mind. that does not make her off unless you are in a very conservative group. suzi makes mistakes but she is not immoral. she is a very loving and giving woman. she believes christ is her savior as he is everyones. she has a beautiful soul and would not hurt anyone intentionally. suzi, you are a courageous woman for writing and creating this blog. you set a good example for your daughter and other women to follow. it is good to tell the truth. it is good to speak up when there is wrong. christians have had to do that since jesus was on this earth.
DeleteI meant no disrespect, yes it was because of the circumstances we were living in. I thought she was nice, and still do, just didn't know how opinionated she was. Or what they were, this conversation would not have happened inside the FOC with a good outcome.
DeleteI am catching up on my reading and laughed. I never new you Suzanne was a liar. Quiet at times and then spoke your mind when you had a oppinion. I never heard that your family was liars. CS does have trouble telling the truth. I have heard him speak knowledgably in his circle of friends on the back porch. But when he drove out of the church parking lot, he did not live the life he had just spoke about. I heard him once try and use religion as an excuse for his good friends affares. Where is he now? Where are his good friends? His wife and kids? There kids? I don’t want that kind of religion. He may have been fun to listen to but he really didn’t know what he was talking about. You couldn’t believe everything that came out of his mouth. Suzanne I thought it was sad that a whole family left. Even if you had your reasons.
DeleteSorry for my spelling. I've been out of school for a long time so spelling isn't my best subject. Maggie are you saying that in any other church that any random person could walk in and start preaching? That sounds like confusion to me. I don't think that god is the author of confusion. So stopping a meeting that an unknown person wanted to preach at seams reasonable to me. Btw driving from gladstone to oc is not a long drive so what was the point of that???
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, I know quite a bit more about the CS and LS situation than you, apparently, as what you write isn't true.
DeleteSticking up for my sister in law Suzi, she did not "mess around" with people in the church.
I don't understand that last sentence in your post...and as the questions you ask me, any other church would have a preacher/pastor already. People came/come to FOC because they know they do not have preaching. God is not the author of confusion, but your posts above confuse me.
When you're 8-12 years old, the drive from Gladstone to FOC is a long one with your father complaining every time the drive was made how much gasoline it takes...that was the point...it was more memorable for me, since I knew my dad didn't like driving ALL that way...and church was dismissed. I wasn't arguing with you about the fact if it needed to be dismissed or not. I was merely stating that I remembered that day since you were falsely accusing Suzi of lying about it.
I remember that day too.
DeleteI remember feeling scared because of what happened.
Not falsely at all. she missled aka lied when she tries to make it sound like if an ouysider came in we would cancel the meeting. you are the one that exposed her by saying you remember that a man came in and tried to preach uninvited. my point is suzi doesnt mention things like that in her posts. but thanks for sheding some light...
ReplyDeleteWow. Congrats on sussing me out. It was not a blog post, as you keep insisting (lying). In response to an inquiry on what would happen if an outsider came in, I polled some ex-Followers and that was one of the options - that everyone might just get up and leave.
DeleteTo be clear to anyone reading. That probably won't happen. But to be clear as well, you are not invited to the church. They will not be kind to you. You are not welcome
I'm sorry, I missed the point I guess. I was defending her for saying meeting HAD been cancelled, for outsiders trying to preach. I thought you were stating that had never happened. It shouldn't have to happen, it's too bad it did. It's too bad they (you and others still attending) won't LET anyone with a Bible get on the pulpit and preach, teach, edify, rebuke, correct or train in righteousness....2Timothy 3:16
DeletePS, since you are so concerned about this detail, please go back to the original comment and note that I have added an amendement to my first statement. I will pardon your poor spelling/grammar/word usage if will pardon me for not having an absolutely perfect recall.
Deletenow i am confused. glenford canceled the meeting because someone from the outside came in and tried to preach. how is that a lie. no one from the outside would have been welcome let alone to walk up to the puplit to preach. i remember when a family of outsiders came in. the sat on a bench and everyone else on the bench moved. no one would talk to them even though they reached out and tried to greet others. i was embarrassed but i was a kid and i followed what the adults were doing.
DeleteSorry I called your comment or response a "blog post". I am not familiar with the terms used on this form of medea. if that means i lied than i guess your right on that too. I guess my poor spelling and lack of higher learning makes me an unreliable poster. but your lack of truth makes you an unreliable host.
ReplyDeleteI'm still perplexed as to what truth you're calling Suzi out for having lack of? Her saying people MIGHT leave or cancel meeting is NOT lack of truth. Is that why you're calling her a liar? Because she said something could, or might happen?
DeleteSo you are saying all are welcome at the FOC in OC. Perfect I hope all of Portland metro. Area comes this sunday. So they can see with there own eyes how you play church and call your sing along church. Maybe if you are lucky someone will actually preach the word of god to the congregation. So the gospel message could be spread and people could be saved. I pray your open envite will bring all.
ReplyDeleteI remember in the 70s there was someone who walked in, up on the pulpit and started preaching. The elders at the time got up and walked out, then everyone else stood up and walked out while he was preaching. Not too long ago, a stranger walked in and was told directly by a man to leave.
ReplyDeleteI heard about someone once tell another stranger "what are you doing here? You do not belong here". Yet someone else asked if they could be a member and was told no. That also happened at least once once while Glenford was here and Glenford the elder said no. It is a closed church. You cannot be a member unless you are born there. You may or may not be treated bad if you go there. It would mostly depend on who you sat next to. Most likely you would just be ignored.
Anonymous 9:42 you said you do not see judgment and then proceed to judge and attack Suzi. Many current FOC members want to believe that people only leave because they want to commit sin. This makes it easier for them somehow to believe that proves they are right and the rest of everyone in the whole world is wrong. Although some may leave to pursue sin, many leave because they read the bible and come to realize that many / most FOC beliefs today are not compatible with what the bible teaches.
From what I have read throughout these posts is that Suzi knows she is a sinner (like we all are) and she has found peace and hope through the gospel message that she is not saved by her good works or a lack thereof. Salvation is a gift, you cannot earn it. Suzi appears to believe that and I am very happy she has found it. Even though the bible says it, it is incredibly difficult to find and understand grace while you are at the FOC.
Ephesians 2:8-9 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If you are a current member of the FOC, I would just ask where is your hope? 1 Peter 3:15 says to be "ready always" to answer the reason for your hope. My hope and I believe Suzi's hope is in Christ. Not a man, dead or living, not a place or people, but Christ. Is your hope in how good you have been, your good works or Christ?
This sounds like my grandpa. :) My mom told me, when she was growing up, he went to Oregon City and stood to preach and everyone walked out on him. What you said lined up with that. Now, he has Alzheimers and doesn't know I'm his granddaughter, so he probably doesn't remember this incident at all.
DeleteAmen! That is wonderfully written!
ReplyDeleteIf you watch your child DIE while you prayed over them instead of getting them the proper help and treatment... you are a MURDERER! Period.
ReplyDeleteIf you watch your child DIE while you pray over them and do not get them the help and treatment they NEED to LIVE... you are a MURDERER. Period. MURDERERS go to HELL! Just sayin'...
ReplyDeleteOh, my lord. This article was aboslutely EXHAUSTING to read. So many Bible passages, every second sentence, followed by the verse. Reminds me of thta Skeletor woman and her old husband on at late nights who just randomly spews out verse after verse, barely making any sense as to what his point is.
ReplyDeleteThis is why skeptics/atheists, agnostics, and a lot of actual Christians are turned off by such radical evangelism. It is downright exhausting, as you scramble to attempt to find every little sentence to back up your beliefs, which actually weakens your beliefs, because it appears you are feverishly trying to find every bit of approval you can muster for your untenable position. And you intellectually know it is untenable.
The problem is, when you go around doing this, you are missing the entire overarching theme of Jesus' ministry: "Love thy neighbor as yourself," and "forgive those who trespass against you." Jesus' ministry was all about having SPIRITUAL faith in him, and therefore, to confess your sins, and to ask for forgiveness. He constantly preaches that the Earth is not of his kingdom, and to "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's." Asking help from your neighbor, not only is NOT condemned, but is rather encouraged. When you see a doctor, you are seeking help from another human being. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
And I am an atheist. Seems I know far more about your religion than you do. (Of course, I grew up as a Catholic. I know the Bible quite well.)