Wednesday, February 29, 2012

What Did He Die For?

Please Note: After a number of angry threats (on my eternal soul) for committing the unforgivable sin of mentioning the name of someone who had died, I have replaced references to this person with initials in my blog post. Unfortunately, I cannot edit the comments of others.


Too many young people die – not just the children under eighteen who make the news – also young adults. Twenty- and thirty- somethings. Having a baby can be terrifying, knowing that if something goes wrong – say the baby’s head is too big for a vaginal birth – well, hello martyrdom. There was a man, a year older than me, who was well-liked by all. He married his high school sweetheart when they were nineteen and seventeen, and had two children. When he was in his 20’s, he was injured while water skiing. I believe he hit his head. After several months of suffering, he died. The letter below is from one of his good friends, who (like most members of this group) could not sign his name for fear of retribution.

* * *

Circa 1998

Why did Walter White (from what I hear and read in Tom Nichols’ letter) believe you need a preacher and baptism? Also you who believe the Bible and what Walter preached get your mouths open or else the gunk will take over just like what you people who are baptized are doing now. The gunk and what the elders taught you people who turned themselves over to what you see now and hear, like T.C., said you don’t need a preacher. He (T.C.) believed that faith would heal him, raise him up. It did not work. So the men in this church are wrong. He truly did to believe the men’s teaching in this church faith in God, that he would heal him. But it did not. He died.

He was sick over six months. Prayer to God to heal him and everyone anointed and laid hands on him from all ages from six years old to sixty years old. Baptized ones and ones that were not baptized. Now what do his friends and the young people do? Live some more years under this gunk and joke teaching of the elders and men in this church or get back to the truth of the teaching of Walter White and the bible? Or continue this way because when T.C. died there was no happiness of seeing him again, but a sorrow of why did he have to die and suffer and not have his faith heal or raise him up? Because he has two children and a wife.

There has to be a better way of living. This ten songs and bull shit religion that these old men have backed and taught for thirty years. We do need a preacher and baptism and why should we have to wait on God for thirty more years, because for thirty-five years he has not answered any one of these men in the church for waiting on God.

They say do not counsel God. Don’t piss God off. He might get mad. How all you big men tell us young people more of what to do. We will try and believe our faith in God and get sick and let everyone lay hands from ages one year to eighty years old and get what T.C. got by practicing and playing church. With his faith in God and the truth and he died. But now I can see after more will die while they are playing church not baptized or need a preacher. All the old men and women will still argue they are all right.

Not Jesus Christ or what Walter taught. So do we continue in sin so God may abound. Do the old men and women (forefathers) have the right to teach us and tell us young people we do not need baptism or a preacher? Who in the world or anywhere reads this in the Bible? Can anyone in this church down through time say the old preachers and even Jesus Christ say what we are doing is all right and a lie is okay? We are believing a lie. This church is wrong the way it is playing church.

Friend of T.C.

Please check back on Sunday to read another letter ...

52 comments:

  1. I'm assuming this man, Tracy, didn't see a doctor when he was injured?

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  2. Suzi, wow. Thanks again for sharing. Waiting patiently for the book. Get writing, Chica.

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  3. I remember going over to see Tracy's wife after he died. My mom took me. After leaving there, we had a conversation in the car, and I expressed my concern that i would not be able to sit back and watch my husband fade away and die like Tracy did. My husband and I had been contemplating our "religion" and searching scripture to figure out what we were teaching our two young boys. When we realized what we were "playing" wasn't biblical, God started opening our eyes more each day. With the passing of children, women in childbirth, babies, and grown men (some my husband's age), I realized I wouldn't do that. I would not sacrifice my family. Jesus paid it all....now, we just needed to search for others that believed this! My mom was shocked! She couldn't believe I would've thought of any other way than death!

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  4. His frustration is obvious, and can't be unique to at least the younger generation of the FOC. To some degree churches have a belief that THEY are who the Bible was written about, and for. But these people have taken that to the next level. As a Christian you change yourself, and bend to the will of God. It would appear that when their circumstances change, they change the Bible to fit their will. You mention songs, and now this person mentioned songs. What are they singing about, what songs? You mentioned them having musicians in their ranks, do they write their own music about NOT needing to be saved? Do they document their beliefs and hand it out as the revised edition of the Bible? Occam's razor suggests that the simplest answer is probably the right one. By all accounts Walter White preached the Bible, in his own way. They seem to have went away from his teaching, according to Nichols, and now this guy. Either the Bible changed after his death, or they did. What's the simplest answer?

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  5. They sing Saved by Grace, Blessed Assurance, Standing in the Promises, Jesus paid it all, onward Christian Soldiers, yet...I wasn't aware of the truth of these hymns until I became a true believer in Christ.

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    1. I agree Maggie. I knew those songs by heart, but never internalized or comprehended the meaning behind them.

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  6. Well, Maggie & Suzanne, you would have been aware of the truth of the Hymns, and comprehended the meaning, had you been believers.

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    1. Anonymous, I'm not sure if you are friend or foe...let me just say you are not totally correct, I cannot speak for my sister-in-law, but I never doubted the existence of God. That would make me a believer. But to just "be aware" of anything is not logical...we had no minister. That church is social club. Really, how could we be aware of the truth of the scriptures by singing ten songs?

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    2. I have always believed in God, yet I had NO idea what God's plan was for me. I believed in going to hell and heaven. I was raised to fear hell. When someone asked me in the summer of 2000 if I was saved, I had no idea what he was talking about. My reply was "I am not baptized, so I guess not" with the Love of Christ, this man explained to us what being saved was. Are you kidding me? He must have been crazy! There is no way I can tell that I'm going to Heaven for sure! Well, once i finally cried to God to forgive my sins, and guide me through this life, I later believed and understood that His gift of Salvation that No one can earn...was free....I was free. Amazing Grace, that SAVED a wretch like me! I once was LOST, but now am found....was BLIND but NOW I SEE.

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  7. You are touching on a very personal and painful subject when you bring up Tracy. For me this is crossing a line. talk about teaching or lack there of. Talk about you and your family all you want. Talk all you want about church history and feuding ministers. Tracy isn't needed for you to make your point. Tommy is fun subject let's see his other letter, I haven't seen it in a long time.

    Suzanne, you say you are trying to help, but it looks to me that you are hoping to get fame and notoriety by writing a book about people you used to know.

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    1. Dear Anonymous, I do not mean any disrespect to Tracy or his family. I apologize sincerely if it is taken that way.

      This blog is about the FOC, but my book is about my life - it's a memoir (not about people I used to know). Two different projects. There is no mention of Tracy in my book, I can assure you

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    2. It is important to talk about situations like Tracy's as the news and those around us generally will focus on the children that die unnecessarily, but as we all know there are cases such as Tracy's that have happened as well. My father worked on job's with Tracy over the years and after his injury I remember him being so upset after seeing Tracy at a job where he was obviously struggling. There is absolutely NO doubt that the chances of Tracy still being here today are very, very good if he would have seen a doctor since he lived months with the head injury he received. I am sure Tracy's passing is very personal for many, many people. I grew up and graduated with him and like many thought he was just an all around great guy. I have thought about him and the tragedy of the loss of his life many times over the years. He should still be here today with his wife and his children. They watched him suffer and die for no good reason. The term "playing church" seems so fitting in the case of the followers. In my opinion he is a part of this story and a part of what happens within the walls of the FOC and it should be told painful or not. Nobody can change the fact that he suffered and he died and didn't have to.

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  8. No doubt it is painful and personal to talk about his death, especially for his family. I cannot image their suffering. It is painful for me to read and I did not know Tracy that well, but he always seemed so energetic and full of life. There are A LOT of stories like his. A whole book could be written on the people who died and how doctors could have helped them. However, Suzanne's point is important. There were and are going to be more young people that die and do not have to. They did not die for anything other than not going to a doctor.

    Suzanne are you sure that letter circa 1998 was written by a friend? It seems like something Tommy would have written after he wrote his first one.

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    1. The letters are handwritten, and this was in much different handwriting, though the envelopes were addressed by the same person. I think the young man gave his letter to Tommy, who copied and mailed it out. Also, this letter had MANY more grammatical errors - some I left in and some I tried to fix so the letter would be readable.

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    2. Not to make light of people I do not know, in places I have never been, but it was barely even readable as it was. I think that there are some serious issues with this FOC church, other than not seeing a doctor. Basic education and English-writing skills, for one....

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  9. When I sang "the print of the nails in his hands" I had no idea that it meant pierced holes that held him to the cross because of my sins. It wasn't until I became a believer (not in the FOC) that I realized it didn't mean a shadow of a bunch of nails laying across the palm of his hand. I will speak of and continue to speak of circumstances that led me and my husband away from there. If it's too painful for you, then don't read this. If it leads one soul to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.....Praise be to God! Once you've had your family shut the door to your children, and your parents be too proud that they go to their graves without saying they love you, there isn't a whole lot left to hope for than to try to lead others out. Where there is LIFE there is hope. There is no hope for my parents. I pray that loved ones know there is a WAY...Jesus is the Way, the truth, the life...Can I get an Amen?

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  10. Maybe when your done with the FOC you can go after the Amish

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    1. You may hate me, but I love you. If you can't see that, I'm sorry for you. May God bless you and everyone you love.

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  11. Another Amen goes here!!!
    I also have family loved ones in that cult that calls them self the FOC in OC.
    That I to can not see by there will not mine. I have tried to contact them, talk to them, they can not even respond. They can not talk to me or my family. What a shame what a joke. GOD has so much peace, love, and joy that these people are missing out. I to sang those songs had the memorized the numbers engraved in to my mind. The meanings of the old hymns never ment anything to me when I was there. I did not think I was a sinner, I did not need a savior. I was never taught the meaning of CHRIST. How could you when you just sing songs. I was so lost with out a savior. These people just need to here the gospel. The word is so powerful. Just submit and surender to Christ. I know now that I am the chiefiest of sinners and I do need a savior. He has washed me and I am his. Not by my words or actions but by his words. Thank you JESUS for your work on the cross for me. Words can not thank you. Hopefully actions will thank you. These thoughts about Tracy crone are memories that have been long since filed away. Thank you susann for bringing it up. There are so many young people that have passed with out being able to here the word taught. Brian Mitchell,Steven Mitchell,mike points,missy Eells,Derak zirkle,janae McDowell,jaqulin beagely,Bonnie smith, Greg smith,carter Cunningham. Are many many more I am sure I am not able to rember out of no disrespect. I too Maggie and susann hope that out of this that just one soul would surrender to Christ. All the pain would be worth it. This blog dredges up many good and bad memories for me. But my hope my prayer is that they all come to the knowledge of the truth. That they find no peace in there life with out GOD. As you said where there is life there is hope. If you are reading these blogs and still goto the FOC in OC ask your self why? Have you surrendered to Christ if not how come? Are you obident to Christ, why not. What hinderest you? Why do you wait?knock ask seek. These are questions you should be asking yourself. If you can come to peace with your answers than GOD bless you.

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    1. Derek would be surprised to find out He died young. Since I just saw him last week.

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    2. Sorry Thats right Trevor thanks for pointing that out. Glad to hear he is doing fine I am sure i have not mentioned many others. But alas my memory is only so good. It's just a shame that so many young men and women has died.One died for all though

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    3. Sadly, Derek's first wife was buried in Carus cemetery. Just a few weeks after the birth of their first child. I remember telling my spouse how his wife cannot die....she did. He heart was no longer the same. Infection. Sad that their son will never know his real mother.

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  12. You don't have to agree with me or goto the same church as I. But with Christ you should be able to find peace with your decision.
    Sorry that should have went with above

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  13. Maggie, why would you worry so much about leading people out of the FOC, and just worry about getting you and your kids into the kingdom of Heaven. That would make more sense to me. Everybody has to get themselves in, you can't save everybody else.

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    1. Have you ever heard of the Great Commission?

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    2. It looks like this one got glazed over, "everyone has to get themselves in"? The only way IN is by GRACE! If you think that your going to submit your birthplace, or the building that you sang songs in, or who you were Babtized of(Walter White) as the reason you got yourself a place in Heaven then your kidding yourself. That's a perfect example of their theology gone astray. And Suzie, most of the people reading this were probably referred to it. " someone" maybe you? Posted your name on a news website a long time ago, I don't think they were haplessly searching the names of EX followers to see what they were saying about the church. It is probably painful for a family to see the name of their loved one posted in this forum. Unfortunately for them if your going to tell the "whole truth" as you've been directed to by the FOC representative who demanded it, then I don't think you have a choice. The public understands that children are suffering, but they may not see how the adults are suffering also. Physically, and spiritually

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    3. I've waited awhile to post a response to the following: Maggie, why would you worry so much about leading people out of the FOC, and just worry about getting you and your kids into the kingdom of Heaven. That would make more sense to me. Everybody has to get themselves in, you can't save everybody else.

      It was something my mother would have said while I was growing up. Kind of a haunting thing to think about now. 1. I cannot get anyone into the Kingdom of Heaven. 2. God loves the world, not just a certain town, place or people and made a way for EVERYONE to go to Heaven. 3. I'm not worried about leading people out of the church, I'm concerned they won't find eternal life while IN the so called place you call church. I'd love to see the people of the FOC in OC in heaven some day. Can I know I'll see my parents? No. That makes me sad. 4. No one can get themselves in, AND No one can save anyone else...except for Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

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  14. Suzanne and Maggie seem consumed with something they gave up. You both should move beyond Oregon city, they have all long forgot about You. I am pretty sure no one anywhere will be converted by either of you, it's just vanity that makes you think any follower would be influenced by either of you. Maggie comes off even more arrogant than Suzanne and that isn't easy to Do. Suzanne should stick to her personal experience not other people's deceased loved one's. If you really care about any of these people you should be more careful when you choose what you decide what is worth writing about. I use to like you and your family but a lot of what you write is mean spirited and unnecessary. If you are content with the life you have created then I am happy for you. I am sorry you have such bad memories of your life as a follower, many people including me were disappointed when all the shumakers left. I wish you all peace and happiness. If this blog helps you then keep it up but know not everyone is who you think they are

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    1. If you have forgotten about us, it's odd that you are reading my blog. Thank you for the advice on my writing topics. I assure you that my book is about my life and experiences. Anyone (living or not), outside of my family, who is mentioned or alluded to in my book has had their names changed.

      I don't think either of us have said that our lives were terrible in the FOC. But, like I have said before, it was scary to believe God was waiting to cast me into Hell. It was also delusional in so many regards. I am glad that my chains are broken.

      I'm not sure how you can accuse me of being mean-spirited. I certainly haven't written anything negative about Tracy, or Tommy for that matter. I haven't given a negative opinion about anyone, actually.

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    2. I surely am not consumed by leaving the FOC in OC. I think it's a terribly sad situation for so many others that are stuck there becuse their children got married there, or they can't bring themselves to give up anything for the truth of who Jesus Chriat is and what He did for them. I'm sure I come across arrogantly, any type of writing can, when you can't see the emotion in ones face, or hear it in their voice. I believe people read the emotion they want to hear. I'm focusing on winning souls for Chriat because I love people there, although I've said before that I do not have anything to protect anymore. It doesn't mean I don't love my nephew, his wife, my great niece and nephew, my sisters, their children, aunts, uncles, cousins, and I DO want them to come to the knowledge of their need for a savior. Please read the book of Romans, asking the Lord to open your eyes and your heart. Apparently Suzanne is reaching members of the FOC if they're reading this anonymously!

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  15. Your name hadn't came out of my mouth for nearly 10 years then someone told me about your blog. The shumakers were far from my mind for a long time. Many of the comments you make have a angry tone to them. You paint with a broad brush. It seems you have judged a whole church by the actions of a few. You don't know as much about the followers as you claim. Your only view was as a young girl and very young woman. You can't paint the whole picture from that angle. That's why you don't see it the same as your brothers. The most shocking thing I have read here is that Darren doesn't count you as an enemy. He seems fairly smart but He doesn't see you for who you really are and what you are trying to Do with this blog. Maybe I am wrong and He is just using this blog to reach oc, surely He doesn't trust you....

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    1. I felt I was being judged by God himself when we sat on Molalla ave with our left hand blinker on waiting to turn into this parking lot that screamed to the world....I belong here, I go along with this. It wasn't until I asked my husband angrily why he always worked late on Thursday nights and my husband asked me WHY I still go to church at all...did I realize I was going to sing songs twice a week so my mom wouldn't call me Friday or Monday morning to see if we were sick. What a freaky reason to go to church! It wasn't to open my Bible with other believers and learn what God wanted of me, or what He did for me, it was out of fear of man. how many of you IN the FOC can not say the same?

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    2. Anon., I think my exact statement was "I do not count you as enemies, nor would I enjoy being perceived as one." I was referring to the FOC in Oregon City not Suzi.

      I am not in a position to know Suzi's agenda, nor her mine. She has been liberal with me in allowing me to blog my personal scriptural beliefs and to share our common history, even when they are against her notions. I thank her for that.

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    3. If someone "doesn't understand the church as a young girl and very young woman," whose fault is that, exactly? I would have to say "the people who raised her," which seems to me, is the job of the church! Which means the anon person who wrote that scathing reply two years ago. If a young person asks you a question, you answer them honestly and truthfully, and without conviction. The young are curious. They want to know, and are fully capable of learning. If someone who is raised inside a church up until their young adulthood years who still does not understand the church they were raised in, that is YOUR fault. Not hers. It's called "communication." An ability that "god" supposedly gave to us humans to use in order to "spread the word of god," or "the gospels."

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  16. If you think you are causing confusion and doubt in the church just remember,your not but.....who is the author of confusion? your not alone in writing this,for your sake please be careful,for your words you will be judged.

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    1. Are you suggesting that Satan is my co-author? Interesting. I'm sure you also think that my writing is blasphemy too. I'm sure you think I'm going to Hell because I don't go to your sing-along anymore. Do you see how illogical that is?

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    2. I hope Suzanne IS judged for her words, I hope I am judged for my words. I know where I'm going when I die. To meet my maker, my Lord, my Savior, my Redeemer, to Heaven, if you didn't know that's where He lives, seated t the right hand of God, His Father, Him being God in the flesh. I'm thankful I have the Holy Spirit living in me making me a Bold witness for Christ. I pray that ALL of you "Anonymouses" come to the knowledge of the truth, are saved, and see us in Heaven again someday.

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  17. Suzanne have you taken some sort of office in a ministry? The way you write kind of hints that you have taken up some sort of calling.

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    1. My primary vocation is a parent; I am employed part-time as a college instructor. I do not have any official position in any church. I do volunteer work with my church, and I'm convinced, through scripture, that all believers are called to share the gospel with the world and to help grow disciples.

      "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." 1 Peter 2:9.

      For a better understanding of this scripture, please read the notes on this page: http://bible.cc/1_peter/2-9.htm

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    2. "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” Matthew 28:18-20

      "He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:15

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  18. Anonymous, do us all a favor and lets try and concentrate on the issues. My experience, as a FOC member, is that when the subject of discussion can not be defended, some church members will look to attack. As an example to my point, when one of the FOC children died, a few years ago, the word quickly got around that someone had thought one of the investigating officers was drunk. This become the rallying cry. To all who might be reading this blog, the point of these discussions is not whether the investigating officer was drunk, if the DA, child services or any other investigating group lied, its about the kids.

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  19. This blog is as much about Suzanne as it is anything else. If she doesn't like a question she doesn't have to publish it or answer it. I think asking questions about who she has become is fair game.

    Why would you as a follower want to concentrate on any issue with Suzanne?

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  20. Keep in mind that God himself could come down from Heaven right infront of all of the FOC in Oregon City...but if he didn't look like Walter, talk like Walter or walk like Walter they would turn from him.

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  21. Anonymous, I get frustrated with the "you must be wrong if we do not agree" mentality many FOC members have. It is okay that you drank the "Walter white koolaide", please do not condem the rest of us for not partaking.

    Suzanne, I have two things to say. First, I feel that the "sing along" comment was beneath you. And second, I think it is very important for your readers to know that there are many church members that absolutely do not agree with most of the things that the minority do or say. We shouldn't judge the entire body by the actions of a few.

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    1. I'm very curious, and please forgive me if I misunderstood you, but if you (and presumably others) did not partake of the "Walter White Kool Aid," then why do you go along with the continued isolation from the other FOC churches?

      I wholeheartedly agree that there is no collective consensus in the church on many important matters. That will happen to any group without leadership.

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    2. Above says there are many differences out at the FOC in OC. I also thought that there were also examples are as follows. Pray for a preacher or not. If we will get a preacher or not. Baptized or no baptisim. Doctors or no doctors. To support trials or not to support. So many rules to follow but it all boils down to one rule all others fade out of sight by all that belong to the FOC in OC. That is if you step out of that building you are doomed to hell. You have to belong to that geogarfic location to have a chance at salvation. What it boils down to is that if you are lucky enough to happen to be born into that church. That is the only chance at salvation. It's not through Jesus Christ but through that church and that church alone. So you see the rest of the entire world is fuel for hell. To those people. That's the only division inside the walls of the FOC that all will agree on

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    3. Not everyone thinks that. Everyone just wants to pile on with their say so. It's funny that so many are trying to speak about what someone else thinks. Speak for yourself only.

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    4. So, anon on 3/4 at 9:55pm, speak for yourself. If you are sticking up for people that didn't "drink the Koolaid" of Walter, does that mean that you didn't either? And why attend a place based on other's think so's and not the Word of God?

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  22. Wow! First off all the comments about mentioning Tracy's name or anyone elses are comical. Anyone around OC knew of the situation as it was horribly tragic and without saying names you sure as heck would know who it was. First of all I am sure any current FOC member has been told to stay far, far away from this blog just like their children are told to stay far, far away from children not a part of the FOC. Of course many read it...I am sure it is either an education tool, something that scares this crap out of them or they become bitter about. Tracy's family lived that tragedy they saw it every single day, it is doubtful any have tucked it away to never be thought of again. With mentioning names you really would only be concerned about people that know them in their community...guess what we all know who belongs to the church. If they are an Eels, Crones, Zirkle...and if they don't have one of the names that are so common they are segregated into groups of those that do. Don't focus on what doesn't matter...what matters is that people are dying for no reason due to the lack of education, ignorance and fear. It is the children that our community is most concerned for you know the ones that have no voice and have no say.

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  23. Anonymous, I think that the words you are reading are coming from a very educated person. Maybe the problem here is that the FOC fear education? Is the fear that one may learn the truths of the world or the truth of the Lord will be found? I think so! Especially educated women. I think Suzanne is walking proof of what they are afraid of. I am not a member nor have I ever been a member of the FOC. I have always wondered what happened to many of my classmates that were Followers. So many of them were extremely smart. What did they grow up to be? The only thing I knew was that they were never going to be doctors. Suzanne I really admire you, not only for leaving the church to follow “your own” beliefs, but becoming educated when that is not what the women around you were raised to do. Children need to be raised to make their own choices. Even if those choices aren’t right. How do we know they are not right unless we test the waters? We don’t know the fires hot until we get burned.

    I will continue to read your Blog and look forward to reading your book. I know people are saying you didn’t know what was going on in that church but you sure knew a lot more than us outsiders did. Hello…you were raised in it…I believe you are speaking from true experience so, thank you!

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