Tuesday, January 8, 2013

Church Money



Last July, I wrote a blog about the tithing that is done at most Christian churches, as opposed to the monthly church dues – of about $50 – paid by each head of household in the F.O.C. Since a tithe is ten percent and is, in all circumstances, far more than $50/month, I was surprised by some of the reactions by folks who thought that paying church dues is unbiblical. The catalyst for the Oregon City group charging monthly fees was when the church burned down and they were raising fees to build a new one.

I’ve also blogged about the rejected F.O.C. preacher, Ernest Nichols. I do not have a clear answer as to what really happened with him. Some say he was doing “bad” business. Others say that White wanted to keep the power to himself.

Another story that I’ve recently heard was that Ernest and Walter’s fight was over the church finances and what they should be spent on. Ernest wanted to create children’s services – Sunday school for kids. Ernest wanted to build an area for children.  Just imagine, having Sunday school classes! That would’ve been much more relevant than trying to follow the adult-centered sermons in church. The first time I attended a children’s Sunday school class was when I showed up to teach the class.

Have you ever wondered how the folks who lost their children were able to pay their lawyers? The church had plenty of money (I thought) to pay for this. I’ve heard rumors that there was a legal mandate stating that the church could not pay the lawyers. I don’t know if that’s true or just some garbled rumor.

So the church leaders sent a letter out to heads-of-household asking for $5,000 from each family for the legal defense. People either paid it or were adamantly opposed. The next letter asked for $3000.

Because the efforts to mandate donations created division among the group, a Follower woman then started a fundraising effort – garage sales, craft sales, bring your stuff and have a rummage sale (they used to be free). She also had a knick-knack store and donated part of her profits. Then she started a website to solicit donations and represented it as donations for families with children who have terminal illness; to support grieving parents. Now only the website and private donations and sales are used to pay the legal fees.

54 comments:

  1. sounds like you have an internal spy. good job.

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  2. What's the name of the website? It will be taken down, or re-worded in minutes. Isn't that fraud?

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  3. If you dont know if something is true or a rumor then why print it? oh yes it doesnt matter to you if its true or a rumor just print it anyway.

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    1. but, it IS true.

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    2. Actually, the only part I wasn't sure was truth or rumor was that the church was not allowed to pay the lawyers. That doesn't make sense.

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    3. What is the name of the website?

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    4. http://www.ffpfoundation.org

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    5. Say No to Daycare whenever possible –

      Instill YOUR values into YOUR kids. Raise YOUR OWN kids with YOUR OWN values
      Too many children are being dropped off at Daycare to be raised by a stranger and parents wonder why they act like they do. Because they are being raised by a stranger, parents have no idea what values or habits they are being taught while in the care of this person.

      Then... the parents feel guilty for not being there when their child needs them so they buy them off or don’t cross them, out of guilt.

      This often times results in an insecure brat, through no fault of the child.

      A stable environment with a parent at home produces children with confidence and security that Mom or Dad is always there when they need them. Even if the child acts like they don’t care, they do. And, they know that if they ever need anything, someone they love will be there to help.

      We’ve all heard “it takes a village to raise a child”. Well, this is very try. When the child is surrounded by family and friends, they have more opportunities to pick up good habits from familiar role models.

      This is offensive. Some people have no choice but to work and have there children in daycare. I have to pay for my children's medical insurance some how. Oh yes the followers don't pay for medical insurance. They let there children die and then let the state pay for care. Even though they can raise thousands of dollars on there own.

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  4. She must have a reliable spy.

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    1. Spy? Why would someone have to have a spy to gather information about a group of people claiming to be members of a "church of god"? And why would one consider someone a spy in that group? Very interesting statement. Take a look at it. The only reason someone would need a spy is if it was a closed group of people doing something illegal or wrong?

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  5. Actually a non-profit would not be able to give money for legal fees to one person or group of persons who were connected to the group unless you offered money for legal fees to everyone, regardless of membership in the group. I'll bet they only offer money to those in the group. If they were a legal aid non-profit that helped people who had legal fees from faith healing failure prosecutions, then it would be another story.

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  6. No what was being done, collecting for supposed ill children was completely illegal. I am surprised she has not been caught.

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  7. They will, they audit charities regularly. Mainly they do it to see how much is actually being given out, vs what's taken in. They calculate that ratio then rate the organization. In this case the ratio will be 100 to zero. It might send up a red flag. But when the fine is levied, or the sentence is handed down, it will be labeled persecution.

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  8. No fine or penalty here. Her store, yard sales, gifts, pop can collection and web enterprises Iam sure were giver to the defense fund. And only to the defense fund. This was not the only enterprising woman here. There was a whole room full of sign ups you could do. One woman would even go grocery shopping for you then bring it home cook dinner and sing you a song all for a nominal fee to be given to the defense fund. Poetry to be written for you, gutters to be cleaned, handyman around the house. All for the defense fund. The wooden flower stands around Oregon city they to are given to the defense fund. How else is a closed society to collect money from the outside.

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  9. No fine or penalty here. Her store, yard sales, gifts, pop can collection and web enterprises Iam sure were giver to the defense fund. And only to the defense fund. This was not the only enterprising woman here. There was a whole room full of sign ups you could do. One woman would even go grocery shopping for you then bring it home cook dinner and sing you a song all for a nominal fee to be given to the defense fund. Poetry to be written for you, gutters to be cleaned, handyman around the house. All for the defense fund. The wooden flower stands around Oregon city they to are given to the defense fund. How else is a closed society to collect money from the outside.

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  10. And don't forget her non-profit. Family and Freedom Preservation Foundation, Inc. an Oregon Non-Profit Corporation.

    "Our History in Review


    Since 2008, a small group of Families and Friends saw a couple of self reliant families unexpectedly in need of a little temporary financial assistance. Within a few weeks, we gathered donations from local friends and families and held a huge garage sale in the November to help these families. Much to our surprise, the garage sale was a huge success and the families were successfully assisted and are now thriving on their own.


    In 2010, we were aware of a couple other families unexpectedly needing assistance. We again gathered donations and hosted another garage sale which nearly doubled the proceeds of the first garage sale.



    We have hosted various private fundraisers for typically self reliant Families from 2008 through 2011.


    Over the past several years, we have come to realize that there are scores of good, responsible individuals and families finding themselves in a tough financial position due these difficult economic times or an unexpected situation.


    We have been successful in organizing events to assist families in need."


    Anyone who wants to support family freedom rights should donate now. Please consider a generous donation to preserve your right to live according to God's rules and not end up in jail for it.

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  11. I can not find any information on this woman's web site

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    1. google "family and freedom preservation" and non-profit Oregon, you will find that the officer is Pat Zirkle (an FOC member) ... and while she used a Portland address for the records, the contact phone number is in Oregon City.

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    2. This web site says it helps veterans and thier familys, also helping widows, and family's down on thier luck. It says nothing about follower and thier defense funds. I am not sure this is the same woman who had craft bazire, yard sales, pop can collections. This web site says nothing of the sort. Is it possible that this is a charity sight providing for this nations veterans.

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    3. The contact phone number on that site is the same number for the Zirkle's construction biz (Western Sun Construction) in Oregon City. http://www.ffpfoundation.org/page5.html

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    4. also, if you click "events" on that site, you'll see that Oregon City is the top "bottle drive" collection area

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  12. If PZ is the officer it's the correct site. If they are legitimately helping others outside of the church then that's great. If your right about it being a total fraud, then someone should go to jail.

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  13. Pat is a wonderful person. I want to believe that it's legitimate. If she's helping others outside of the church in secre, t then that's how your supposed to do it right? Mathew 6:1" 1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
    2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
    3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
    4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly."To call a website secret is silly, but I don't know who all she is helping any more than you do. I want to think that she would be doing the right thing. It's troubling to believe that they would be so cruel, and think so little of the public they're pandering to that they would be that deceitful. I hope your wrong.

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    1. AnonymousJanuary 10, 2013 8:37 PM
      Wake up! Pat is a devious person. She is smart and cunning. She knows exactly what she is doing. I am surprised no one has turned her in yet. It is plain deceitful.

      AnonymousJanuary 10, 2013 8:55 AM
      You are correct. The light green flower stands around Oregon City are owned by Shannon Hickmans grandmother. The same one that claimed she was going to have a baby at 70 years.

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    2. To: anonymous 8:37pm. This is a public charity. Charities do not get to operate in secret! Unless of course they have something to hide.

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    3. Pat Zirkle is a total 100% fraud who intimidates and bullies people. She may look like a kind little old lady, but she is a FRAUD!

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  14. The proceeds from this program will go directly to helping Troops and their families with temporary housing during Medical Treatment, Relocation, etc..... I copied this from the above mentioned website. I can't believe that someone as anti hospital as Pat Z. would ever help people out with medical treatment. I think someone needs to expose her for what she really is! Maybe the hypocrisy of this group will finally be exposed. I wonder if she would help out her own family with medical treatment through her organization. Oh yeah she would withdraw from them. She already proved that. So basically it's okay to help out people not belonging to the foc, but you withdraw from family when they have horrible trials. I think Pat must have something to gain through her website. Maybe someone needs to put the puzzle together and let everyone know whats going on with her.

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    1. Especially sincePat son and daughter in law died of medically treatable problems.

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    2. Oh my, I forgot her daughter in law died of infection after the birth of her first child. It was a horrible death. Then the father of the child eventually refused to let her parents be involved in the child's life because the grandfather spoke out about some things that he thought were wrong with way the board of the church was handling things.

      Another family broken up in the name of FOC religion.

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    3. That's so sad. Would they have been happier if she just died also? I guess you can't shun the dead.

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    4. Not happier if she would have died, but content believing in the fact that she lived her faith until the end and didn't falter or sell out her inheritance.

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    5. She faultered, so you shun her? Did anyone ask her if she has faith in God anymore? Who decided that she gave up heaven by going to a doctor, you? Those are harsh judgments aren't they?

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  15. There's a lot of accusations being tossed around. What if she hasn't done anything wrong. If she has defrauded people it will be exposed. There is no reason to drag her name threw the mud based on speculation. There is to much assumption of evil threw this blog.

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    1. The person's name being used is readily available on public record. Easily located via Internet search engines.

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  16. Suzi, do the FOC ever join the military? I don't recall this ever being mentioned on your blog and somehow it doesn't seem to fit with the FOC I knew growing up in OC. For one thing, they would have to submit to physicals and immunizations at the very least.

    If not, then a website purporting to help veterans would be really devious and fraudulent if hosted by an FOC member. Can you imagine the outrage among the citizens of Clackamas County if she really is deceptively trolling for defense funds? Maybe someone needs to put a bug in the Oregonian's ear to check it out.

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    1. A few FOC men were drafted and served in Vietnam as conscientious objectors.

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  17. They were drafted, or served before
    Joining. If she hands one of them a dollar then she's technically doing what it claims. But if audited she would have to force someone to lie to cover her tracks. Lets take a breath here and suppose that it's legit. All of the wild speculation would be for nothing. She is a generous person, and she's just trying to help someone, whoever it is.

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  18. No, she is a generous person, but the funds go to help follower families primarily. She may give free housing to veterans but I'll bet the housing is at her rentals-Extended Stay NW. She will do anything to help you if you don't commit THE unforgivable sin like her grandchild did- go to a doctor when ill for many months with no healing. Thank god the young adult went in, she is alive, her dad, Pat's son, died young with similar symptoms.

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  19. First time I've ever said anything here. I just wanted to get a fact strait. NO "letters" were sent out to heads of house asking for $5,000 or $3,000. Money was NEVER requiered by any sense of the word. It was simply asked that if anyone wanted to they could donate ANY amount upto but not to exceed $55,000.

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    1. Starving children across the world and this church is concerned with keeping the right to deny medical care to children and raise hundreds of thousands for that.

      Disgusting.

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    2. 8:05 can you give some examples of how are helping the starving children.

      Your rant doesn't make any sense. What do needy children have to do with a fundraiser of any kind. If you are passionate about helping hungery kids start your own fundraiser and make sure the help goes where its needed.

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    3. It is well well past hundreds of thousands. It is into the millions and tens of millions now. But I do believe most has been raised with in our group. Not from outside that I know of. It is on a total voluntary basis. But we have raised millions of dollars for the defense of our brethren

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    4. If you have raised nothing from the outside it is because the "worldly people" didn't want to support your defense fund.


      I believe 8:05 is upset because tens of millions have been spent on lawyers when all this could have been avoided if the three sets of FOC parents would have taken their children to a doctor. Nowhere in the bible does it say to pay lawyers, but it does say to help the widows and the children. Yes I know, the FOC do a great job of helping the FOC widows and children as a group, but there have been no concerted effort to help "worldly" kids since PK made t-shirts for the starving kids in Africa.

      I agree with 8:05, tens of millions could do a lot of good in doing God's work. Paying for the lawyers second and third house when it could have all been avoided is really disguising.

      FOc you do have a right to raise money for anything you wans

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    5. It is about priorities. Most churches raise money to feed the poor or help those is need. The FOC raises money to defend their perceived right to deny their children medical care.

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  20. You are correct no letters. Just a meeting at the church building that a suggested amount was given. But you are correct no letters.

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  21. not only did they serve in the vietnam war but the Korean war, WW1 WW2 they were not exempt,and it wasnt just a few either,like every one else in Oregon City.

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    1. Thank you for that correction. My dad served in Vietnam and was a career Navy officer before leaving the military to join the FOC. There are only a handful, if any, veterans still alive in that group.

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    2. The 3 or 4 veterans that I can think of do not need any money... The veteran's widows might.

      Suzi, Is your dad sorry he left the Navy and joined the FOC? Did her really believe or did he just do it to make your mom happy?

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    3. My dad has never (to this day) stopped regretting the choice to leave the Navy. He did believe. My paternal grandmother and one of my uncles joined the FOC for a while and were baptized by Walter.

      My dad was raised Pentecostal and his mom used to shout out, "Amen Brother Walter," and "preach it!" during church services.

      My folks believed in Walter White as a leader and remain protective of White's memory.

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  22. No letters, just a request from the microphone beside the pulpit. You are right about this part-" People either paid it or were adamantly opposed." Some were shunned, many a friendship was strained over this. Collections were taken up on a Sunday every month. The upper limit was actually more like $5500. I thought at the time that was because then they would not have to report the donor to anyone in the government.

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  23. It WASN'T presented as optional. It was causing divisions so they backed off. Not everyone wanted to disregard the law. The law of man or God.

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  24. Please stop Pat Zirkle and her fraud! She pockets the money.

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